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UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#171

Post by a1369209993 »

blub wrote: post #62
jokethrowaway wrote: post #57

Good luck enforcing any of this. As for hundreds other useless regulations that bog us down. For example, compare the warranty process with Apple and with any of the other laptop companies. If regulations worked you wouldn't even consider warranty to be a good selling point. Still I've been burned by warranties services so many times, threatened to report, reported to consumer report and I got nothing out of it. I do…

Apple has been sued multiple times in the EU because of onerous warranty practices and lost. Obviously their working warranty doesn't work so great. There's at least one website tracking GDPR fines. It's gonna take a while given that everyone is illegitimately collecting data on their visitors/customers.

The fact that, after being sued once and doing nothing to fix it, then being sued again, for the same thing, a company is still solvent, is evidence against regulation being effective. If the regulation was effective, they'd either shape up or be bankrupted by fines.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#172

Post by kenmacd »

pabs3 wrote: post #49
aboringusername wrote: post #13

I think any right to repair needs to solve 2 problems: 1: Fixing bad hardware (schematics and such) 2: Fixing old/buggy/broken software that renders said hardware useless. Without open kernels, drivers, frameworks your "right to repair" is meaningless. When you install a new camera to iPhone and it complains it's not genuine because the software says so, the right to repair becomes less useful as now Apple holds all…

Most TVs run Linux so asking them for GPLed code should work, failing that, it is a GPL violation that should be reported to Software Freedom Conservancy, who can help bring the vendor into compliance. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/

My TV runs WebOS. It's all open-source by LG. That still doesn't mean I can run my own code on it without LG specifically allowing me to.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#173

Post by kenmacd »

oliwarner wrote: post #166
penguin_booze wrote: post #157

I had to get a couple of appliances repaired recently. The handy man charges a minimum of 50 GBP per hour. Established and organized business charge upwards of 100 as a call-out charge alone (parts extra). If it's a non-trivial electronic repair, the spare would cost 150+ (and they're allowed to mark up prices as they please). Now add all that up, and a sweet 20% VAT on top, and voila, that's nearly how much a new on…

But if you can do it yourself, the economics change dramatically. I'm not sure what the proposed law changes in this respect. I've fixed boilers, phones, computers, TVs, dishwashers and washing machines to varying degrees without call-out costs. Part availability has never really been an issue.

That's great, but companies are taking direct actions to make this more difficult or even illegal.

Try to repair your tractor, or the software in an older phone/tablet/tv. The software will actively prevent it, and if you break that digital lock you've broken the law in a lot of places.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#174

Post by zepto »

simion314 wrote: post #168
zepto wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren’t talking about cars. As I said earlier, they aren’t a valid comparison. Computers and cars are quite different in their components, and life cycle.

I disagree. But let me know how do you define the line where this electronics should be repairable and the other ones should be DRM locked.

Personally I think the user should choose whether to buy a secure product or not.

I have some open hardware for certain projects, but I am very happy to use Apple products for things like banking and various tasks concerning personal data.

I’m also happy to recommend that non-technical friends use Apple products knowing that the ways that can harm themselves are limited.

I think a lot of people would take a device to a repair kiosk, not understanding the risks, wrongly assuming that they would have some kind of consumer protection.

You aren’t forced to buy an iPhone if you don’t want this.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#175

Post by Nullabillity »

peterlk wrote: post #99
CivBase wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A - A classification system that makes defines how "easy" it is to repair something, but necessarily doesn't mean that you or I can repair it at home.It will be "easy" IF you have the right 50,000 GBP tool. Louis Rossmann did a video tearing apart France's recent implementation of this from the perspective of an Apple repair technician. Despite serialized parts, soldered/glued components, and no available schematic…

I think this pretty well sums up the loophole. You have the right to repair... what? If I buy a macbook, do I get to replace the case? keyboard? These seem pretty reasonable. But what about the right to replace/repair the L1 cache? This is obviously a different story - it would be nice, but the part probably isn't manufactured by Apple (maybe it is on the new Silicon?). My point is that at some point, things start to…

How about this:

A device's component is a Leaf Component if it:

1. Is available on the open market (without special contracts or minimum order quantities)

2. Can be replaced without specialist equipment or knowledge

3. Contains components that are not themselves Leaf Components

A device's Cost To Repair is the List Price (price on the open market, before any discounts) of the most expensive Leaf Component.

A device is taxed based on the square of the device's Cost To Repair.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#176

Post by ClumsyPilot »

zepto wrote: post #159
tpxl wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may have a lower useful lifetime, but that is completely unrelated to their repairability.

This is false. iPhones are built to last longer by being more physically integrated, and the trade off is that they are less repairable.

This is complete fantasy, there is no evidence that iphones are more physically resillient that a $150 crappy android phone.

I asked for evidence, not talking mumbobo-jumbo out of your rear

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#177

Post by ClumsyPilot »

zepto wrote: post #160
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"very real threat of supply chain attacks" Every year millions of devices are thown away because of this. How many phones suffered from supply chain attack last year? Probably zero. Apple products are designed to subvert the concept of ownership. They retain control even after i paid for the item. We live in a world where all of my equipment could be switched off if one of their servers goes down, you are legally for…

I note that you have changed your comment. > Every year millions of devices are thown away because of this. There is no evidence of that. iPhones are not thrown away. They are recycled. > How many phones suffered from supply chain attack last year? Probably zero. Given the obvious rise in cyberattacks at all levels of sophistication this seems like a very weird comment to make.

"There is no evidence of that. iPhones are not thrown away. They are recycled."

Are you fucking kidding me?

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/ghana-ewaste-dump-electronic...

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#178

Post by simion314 »

zepto wrote: post #174
simion314 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. But let me know how do you define the line where this electronics should be repairable and the other ones should be DRM locked.

Personally I think the user should choose whether to buy a secure product or not. I have some open hardware for certain projects, but I am very happy to use Apple products for things like banking and various tasks concerning personal data. I’m also happy to recommend that non-technical friends use Apple products knowing that the ways that can harm themselves are limited. I think a lot of people would take a device to…

>You aren’t forced to buy an iPhone if you don’t want this.

Other Android devices are also similarly bad to repair, with a locked Store and few have an supported way to actually root them. The mobile market is not as diverse like car market or say web/cloud hosting market. We can't give Apple or Samsung an exception from warranty laws because "the user should buy X that offers warranty" , free market only works only if all the free market assumptions hold true.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#179

Post by zepto »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #177
zepto wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I note that you have changed your comment. > Every year millions of devices are thown away because of this. There is no evidence of that. iPhones are not thrown away. They are recycled. > How many phones suffered from supply chain attack last year? Probably zero. Given the obvious rise in cyberattacks at all levels of sophistication this seems like a very weird comment to make.

"There is no evidence of that. iPhones are not thrown away. They are recycled." Are you fucking kidding me? https://www.wired.co.uk/article/ghana-ewaste-dump-electronic...

> Are you fucking kidding me?

No.

That article has nothing to do with iPhones and doesn’t even contain the word iphone anywhere on the page.

That’s because iPhones are recycled.

Those devices are supposedly more repairable Android devices.

Re: UK 'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

#180

Post by zepto »

simion314 wrote: post #178
zepto wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I think the user should choose whether to buy a secure product or not. I have some open hardware for certain projects, but I am very happy to use Apple products for things like banking and various tasks concerning personal data. I’m also happy to recommend that non-technical friends use Apple products knowing that the ways that can harm themselves are limited. I think a lot of people would take a device to…

>You aren’t forced to buy an iPhone if you don’t want this. Other Android devices are also similarly bad to repair, with a locked Store and few have an supported way to actually root them. The mobile market is not as diverse like car market or say web/cloud hosting market. We can't give Apple or Samsung an exception from warranty laws because "the user should buy X that offers warranty" , free market only works only…

> with a locked Store and few have an supported way to actually root them

This has nothing to do with repairability.

> We can't give Apple or Samsung an exception from warranty laws

We don’t, so it’s not clear why you’re even saying this.

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