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Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

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Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#141

Post by JoeAltmaier »

tartoran wrote: post #35
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People lie. On their deathbeds with the sense of impending finality they will do their damndest to come up with anything at all to feel better. Lie to God (I'll convert! I'll be a better person!), lie to their spouse (I was always faithful, and always loved you!), lie to themselves (It's not that bad! I'll live.) Pack any situation with emotion and adrenaline, you'll get world-class mental gymnastics. Look at the exc…

People lie as in "some people lie". That sounds like a narcissist what you are describing there.

Just quoting Dr. House

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#142

Post by morpheos137 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #25
Iv wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deathbeds are where people have maximum experience and low incentive to lie. Nothing magical. Louis XIV saying "I loved war too much" on his deathbed gives a perspective to his life achievements.

People lie. On their deathbeds with the sense of impending finality they will do their damndest to come up with anything at all to feel better. Lie to God (I'll convert! I'll be a better person!), lie to their spouse (I was always faithful, and always loved you!), lie to themselves (It's not that bad! I'll live.) Pack any situation with emotion and adrenaline, you'll get world-class mental gymnastics. Look at the exc…

In contrast to humans, many animals do not put out extraordinary efforts when they are dying of old age or serious disease. Ever see the videos of the sick old Cape Buffalo lying down while lions munch its rear?

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#143

Post by buran77 »

wtetzner wrote: post #138
buran77 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagining things is never the same as facing a finality that has been ingrained throughout your life in your psyche. You can't accurately imagine being old until you're old. You can't accurately imagine being right at the edge of life until you're there. It's like imagining how you'll feel at the end of a movie that wasn't filmed yet, or what the last block of a blockchain will look like before being close to it. Whe…

That's completely missing the point of the exercise. You don't need to accurately imagine it. The point of the exercise is to figure out what you want in life now , by giving you a different perspective.

> That's completely missing the point of the exercise

No it's not, you're just too invested in your example to realize there is no point to the exercise you proposed. A model where up to 90% of data (the "unexperienced" part of your life depending on age) is imagined and by definition inaccurate can't be used for any determination.

> The point of the exercise is to figure out what you want in life now

That's the point of the exercise you proposed, very different from a deathbed perspective, and one I believe couldn't work as described.

The deathbed perspective is an exercise of taking your entire life experiences and distilling them to get a concrete core as seen from the "final checkpoint". The key is knowing that there will be no future experiences to alter the result, and that makes the determination as final and as accurate as it can ever reasonably be. It's not a decision making tool, it can't be used to alter the future. It's a conclusion, a punchline.

But if you want to see what's important now that's a decision, a seed for your future, and it's open to change and evolution. This cannot be more different from a real deathbed perspective. So taking this decision by imagining one of infinite possibilities of your future up to your distant deathbed makes no sense. Your subjectivity will lead you into imagining a completely different future every time, and getting a different perspective and decision.

That girl you like? Deciding she's "what you want now" is just a matter of imagining a future deathbed where she was key to your life happiness. Or maybe it's that job... Or something else entirely. When you're 20 or 30 your "old age" deathbed could have you a billionaire, homeless, or anything you can imagine. An imagined, relatively random, and distant future outcome can't help you decide what's best in the present more than flipping a coin will.

At best you can imagine you are now on your deathbed and go through the exercise to take a decision as if it were the conclusion. I still think it's pointless because imagining you're on your deathbed is like imagining a new color.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#144

Post by cyberlurker »

nullserver wrote: post #95
jacquesc wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This perspective actually seems so much more interesting. Deathbed survivors.

It’s grim, but bridge jumpers that actually survive will often speak about how the unsolvable and overwhelming problems change a moment after stepping off bridge. As in how losing that job doesn’t seem so bad now.

VR Therapy is going to wild...

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#145

Post by nyokodo »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #125
nyokodo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As usual, immortality is the solution. I’m not sure if you’re joking or not but many people are not when they say this. Immortality is impossible in this universe given known physics. The use of the word is at best equivocation and a rather desperate self-delusion. Even if we ignore physics the probability of dying by murder or suicide trend towards 1. All of us are contingent and will eventually face our death.

Wait, biological immortality is real in our universe. There's jellyfish that literally do not die from old age ever.

> There's jellyfish that literally do not die from old age ever.

"Biological immortality" is an equivocation. Immortality is not dying, "not aging" is not immortality as, for instance, those jellyfish definitely die. Even if we stopped humans biologically aging and cured all diseases the universe will still find a way to kill us even if we sidestep all the causes until the universe itself dies of heat death.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#146

Post by nyokodo »

ampdepolymerase wrote: post #22
nyokodo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As usual, immortality is the solution. I’m not sure if you’re joking or not but many people are not when they say this. Immortality is impossible in this universe given known physics. The use of the word is at best equivocation and a rather desperate self-delusion. Even if we ignore physics the probability of dying by murder or suicide trend towards 1. All of us are contingent and will eventually face our death.

Nothing in physics says it is impossible. The current theory in thermodynamics is that the general arrow of entropy applied to biology is decreasing internal entropy (of the cell or lifeform) at the expense of higher external entropy. Are you prepared to bet on this?

Life requires usable external energy to effect that decreasing internal entropy. Usable energy is a finite resource in the universe, what happens when that runs out then? Certain death.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#147

Post by nullserver »

goatinaboat wrote: post #129
bachmeier wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that this is the goal. The problem is that the more I think about being on my deathbed (or death, or read obituaries, etc.) the more I realize I won't care how I spent my life. All of which tells me that how I spend my time today is irrelevant. A long run perspective most definitely does not tell you what really matters to you.

the more I think about being on my deathbed (or death, or read obituaries, etc.) the more I realize I won't care how I spent my life It's why the "bus factor" is such a weird concept. If I get hit by a bus then I guarantee that I will not care in the slightest if anyone else knows how to run the TPS reports. Same if I win the lottery!

Big one for me is having small children and no one that can look after them I die.

Thought of them going into state care is quite motivating.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#148

Post by JoeAltmaier »

There's an exercise used in personal growth experiences. They ask "What would you say if you knew you were going to die tomorrow? Who would you say it to?" Then when everyone has thought about it and revealed their choice, they ask "What are you waiting for?"

Of course, it may be hard to figure this out, if tomorrow isn't really your last day. Its easy to fudge and wriggle and decide you don't really have something to say, or don't want to reveal what it might be. It can also be easier to face when asked by a group you are close to, because you don't want to lie to them (even if you would lie to yourself). So it doesn't often yield catharsis. But sometimes it does.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#149

Post by nullserver »

mc32 wrote: post #77
TeMPOraL wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters, in the same way intent matters when you cut somebody with a blade. Was it attempted murder? Self-defense? Carelessness? Accident? Surgery? Lies, similarly, are fundamentally destructive - a lie is a piece of invalid data that corrupts, to smaller or greater extent, the minds of everyone who come in contact with it. Incorporating a lie in your reasoning moves you further from accurately perceiving reality.…

I would hope lies to protect another person from harm are allowable. We suspect an enemy of the revolution is being harbored in hour house. Are you hiding this person? (forgive the preposterous example, but I hope you get my intent). It could be someone hiding from a jealous lover, someone hiding from loan sharks, etc.

Growing up in Church, not lying was a big issue. 10 Commandment and all. Caused a lot of heartache for a lot of people. Met lots of missionaries who Preached in extremely bad countries and situations.

Quite annoyed to find out it was a translation issue.

You don’t lie then testify against people. Which is a highly specific and malicious sort of lie.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#150

Post by mongo_lover »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #115
mongo_lover wrote: post #73

As someone that has had one or two "deathbed" experiences, I can say two things struck me about them 1) I felt complete peace about dying. In fact, I had to reason myself towards wanting to live 2) I felt a level of clarity about what was important to me that I have never felt before (or since). I struggle to incorporate that into my life on an ongoing basis. I think these experiences were a terrible gift. I would wi…

Is is worth your time do describe that feeling of clarity? Have you ever been able to (re)capture it, even for a moment? Is this a silly question? That's an interesting datum in itself.

It's hard to describe. Best thing I can say is everything just fell away and only the truly important remained. I have never been able to feel that same way again but I try to remember what I felt was important. It is surprisingly hard.
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