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Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

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Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#121

Post by taxicabjesus »

grok22 wrote: post #82
taxicabjesus wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I don't want to die." Gives one a lot to think about. Doesn't seem poignant, I think this is sad. In a previous comment I said, "In America we have an odd relationship with the inevitable. Sometimes people get a terminal diagnosis, and sometimes they fight it. ..." [0] Fighting the inevitable is not a noble way to go. Sometimes people can forestall their passing for a few weeks, months or years, but the reaper com…

Why is your perspective more correct that the perspective of the person who doesn't want to die? I think we all know that people are of various natures and think in a myriad number of ways and refuse to accept that mostly so that society remains stable. But I feel that assuming this perspective is better than the other one (about not wanting to die) in this respect (for this particular thing about wanting to live or…

The point is that death is inevitable. You can either accept the inevitable or fight it, you get to the same place regardless.

One of the recurring characters on Star Trek were the omniscient immortal Q. One of the recurring subplots was of the Q getting bored of being immortal. "For us, the disease is immortality." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqvxufh6ZDo

It's one thing to have purpose, or meaningful things to do. Sometimes people get to the place where they're just taking up space. My mom's 97 year old friend (stroked at 89, can't communicate) spends 7 days a week in her little room at the care home. We try to visit semi-regularly, but that turns out to be about two hours a week, or every-other-week. I've heard lately she's getting herself out of bed and falls. She is kept alive, but she doesn't really care to live. I think she was able to express this to her helper, when she was living at home...

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#122

Post by pwinnski »

Viliam1234 wrote: post #67
pwinnski wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very curious about your assumption that dying people have low incentive to lie. How do you figure? It seems as if nearing the moment of death might make people desperate to represent themselves as better people, more noble than their lived experiences might have shown them to be. I certainly have ideals to which I fail to live up, and while dying I might express those ideal to those around me, since observing my…

For example, a dying person may say: "I regret every day I spent at work; the career was absolutely not worth it; I wish I would have spent more time with my friends and family" without being worried about potential impact on their future employment. Dying can give you the ultimate form of freedom of speech, when you are also free from the consequences. I agree that a person who cares about how they will be remembere…

In that example, the statement is both useless and also possibly still dishonest.

While I might be free in that context of worrying about future employers, I might also feel heavily constrained by the presence of my family and friends. How many people would feel free enough to say the following? "If I had spent more time with my family, they would have driven me absolutely crazy. I got so much more respect and fulfillment as a person at work than I ever did with friends and family. My only real regret is that I left that one job early to spend more time with my kids when they were teens, and they didn't even want to spend any time with me, and I missed that job."

Surely there are people who feel that way, but that kind of honesty in that context is not met kindly, so instead everybody says they wish they had spent time with family.

Maybe it's true. Then again, most people who choose to quit their jobs and stay home end up facing money troubles, which doesn't lead to happy times with family, so inasmuch as it's true, it's empty.

I mean, let's say someone suddenly and unexpectedly recovers. Are they going to then, in fact, quit their job and spend all of their time with their family and friends? Is that feasible? Is that actually what they want? Is that actually what their family and friends want?

I think there is generally just as much motivation to lie as there is for any person's entire life, just about different things, or in a different way. For the same reason, too! Most people still care what others think of them, even up to the moment of death.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#123

Post by renewiltord »

Interesting article. Unlike many others here, I was convinced:

* When I think "I should have worked less" I imagine myself as having worked less and achieved the same. I fail to model the counterfactual reality accurately. I'm imagining a world where my bank balance is the same but I had 20% more time. That means for me, the "I wish I hadn't worked as hard" would be a poor statement. I would fail to have my standard of living. It's possible others are just as bad at the modeling and seeing what I've seen of others, I'm a slightly above average modeler in general.

* I am comfortable with most of my correspondence being public after I die (and for that which reveals details about other participants, when they die as well). But I know that many HN commenters hate this. They have articulated this strongly in the past so I know that control of how you are perceived post-death is important to many others. Unable to categorize who goes into perception management and who goes into Diogenes, I should reasonably not infer that people will tell the truth since they could just be perception managing.

Overall, interesting article. Made me think about a thing I did not even realize I assumed without basis: that deathbed perspectives are valuable because of lack of incentives.

I suppose there is the added truth that people on their deathbed are rarely as mentally able as those for whom death is far.

Yes, I think downgrading my view of the deathbed perspective is correct.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#125

Post by Der_Einzige »

nyokodo wrote: post #19
ampdepolymerase wrote: post #2

As usual, immortality is the solution.

> As usual, immortality is the solution. I’m not sure if you’re joking or not but many people are not when they say this. Immortality is impossible in this universe given known physics. The use of the word is at best equivocation and a rather desperate self-delusion. Even if we ignore physics the probability of dying by murder or suicide trend towards 1. All of us are contingent and will eventually face our death.

Wait, biological immortality is real in our universe. There's jellyfish that literally do not die from old age ever.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#126

Post by renewiltord »

taxicabjesus wrote: post #121
grok22 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is your perspective more correct that the perspective of the person who doesn't want to die? I think we all know that people are of various natures and think in a myriad number of ways and refuse to accept that mostly so that society remains stable. But I feel that assuming this perspective is better than the other one (about not wanting to die) in this respect (for this particular thing about wanting to live or…

The point is that death is inevitable. You can either accept the inevitable or fight it, you get to the same place regardless. One of the recurring characters on Star Trek were the omniscient immortal Q. One of the recurring subplots was of the Q getting bored of being immortal. "For us, the disease is immortality." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqvxufh6ZDo It's one thing to have purpose, or meaningful things to do…

It's not about stopping the inevitable. It is about delaying it.

It's clear that you rage against the dying of your light constantly (as do we all, as we should) since death through inaction is available to us all daily and yet you choose action.

Considering you don't take your own advice and actively consume water, it is hard to believe you.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#127

Post by buran77 »

wtetzner wrote: post #58
bachmeier wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that this is the goal. The problem is that the more I think about being on my deathbed (or death, or read obituaries, etc.) the more I realize I won't care how I spent my life. All of which tells me that how I spend my time today is irrelevant. A long run perspective most definitely does not tell you what really matters to you.

Yeah, I think deathbed is the part of the issue because it distracts from the goal. Maybe a better exercise might be "Imagine yourself in the (distant?) future, while you're still healthy. What would you want that life to look like?".

Imagining things is never the same as facing a finality that has been ingrained throughout your life in your psyche.

You can't accurately imagine being old until you're old. You can't accurately imagine being right at the edge of life until you're there. It's like imagining how you'll feel at the end of a movie that wasn't filmed yet, or what the last block of a blockchain will look like before being close to it. When you're there and have the power of retrospective it's easier to have a final perspective, and even easier to express it since the concept of consequence no longer exists for you.

On one hand you have the full experience of your life so it's easy to draw the line of what was important. On the other hand this never takes into account how many of those "bad" decisions got you where you are now. So the deathbed perspective is the individual's assessment on what were the high and low points of their life, after computing the whole equation. Like deciding which block in the blockchain you're most proud of, it's only possible once you went through all of it.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#128

Post by yccs27 »

giardini wrote: post #44
tartoran wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People lie as in "some people lie". That sounds like a narcissist what you are describing there.

All people lie: deceit is part of being human. Robert L. Trivers has much to say about this. See for example Trivers' book "Deceit and Self-Deception: Fooling Yourself the Better to Fool Others". https://www.amazon.com/Deceit-Self-Deception-Fooling-Yoursel...

"All people lie" is such a dangerous mindset. Of course it's true, if you apply the right semantics. But it's simply faux-philosophical when out of qualifying context.

There are many actions which you might call "lying", including self-deception and politeness, but which are pretty far from the deliberate verbal deception which is generally associated with the word. If you want to understand "lying" in a broad sense, then you should definitely clarify that people lie with different motivations, methods and impacts.

It's just such a trope for narcisstic people to say "all people lie, at least I admit it to myself".

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#129

Post by goatinaboat »

bachmeier wrote: post #57
wtetzner wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think getting someone's perspective when they're actually on their deathbed is particularly interesting. The point of the deathbed perspective is that imagining you're looking back on your life from your deathbed can help you figure out what you find important now . It's trying to get a different perspective on your future, looking at it from another angle.

I agree that this is the goal. The problem is that the more I think about being on my deathbed (or death, or read obituaries, etc.) the more I realize I won't care how I spent my life. All of which tells me that how I spend my time today is irrelevant. A long run perspective most definitely does not tell you what really matters to you.

the more I think about being on my deathbed (or death, or read obituaries, etc.) the more I realize I won't care how I spent my life

It's why the "bus factor" is such a weird concept. If I get hit by a bus then I guarantee that I will not care in the slightest if anyone else knows how to run the TPS reports. Same if I win the lottery!

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#130

Post by jedberg »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #112
jedberg wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but if you are, you'll certainly have a lot more time for them. Edit: If you want to. Being a millionaire gives you the chance to choose to spend time with friends instead of doing chores, because you can pay people to do chores.

I hope this isn't too low effort of a comment, I ask sincerely: Do you really mean that? Do you find that those who achieve are the most likely to have "a lot more time" to focus on their interpersonal relationships? Beyond a modest income, my experiences do not line up. This is almost the same reason that I believe the 20th century conception of retirement is a bit silly.

I really do mean that. It depends on the person. Having hung around the YC crowd for 15 years now, it turns out I have a lot of millionaire friends. Some can't stop working, but many have retired early. They spend their days lounging and lunching with friends who are also retired, and their evenings with their friends who still work during the day.

Even the ones that are still working have plenty of time to spend with friends, because they hire people to do chores like cleaning and folding laundry, and then pay for takeout food to save time on cooking and dishes.

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