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Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

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Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#441

Post by robin21 »

sokoloff wrote: post #436
robin21 wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://kstatic.googleusercontent.com/files/25badfc6b6d1b33f... See leadership. 30% Asian (6% us pop) 60% white (65% us pop) Asians widely over represented. Should we give less jobs to Asians and more to blacks and Hispanics? This kind of points to socioeconomic and educational opportunities in early life. Blacks come from poorer backgrounds etc. But why bring race into it? Why not lift up people from poorer backgrou…

That leaves the critical question: "lift up how and when ?" Lift up by better primary education? Lift up by more outreach to get more poorer people into computing as young adults? Or lift up by having hiring quotas for people whose family income was provably bottom quartile for at least 5 years in their childhood?

The goal should be to have the same academic achievement as their peers at the company they are working for. It’s unfair for smart blacks to be thought of us diversity hires. I can think of nothing worse than having your intelligence questioned your entire career.

Surely someone has studied this though. “Why did you not choose comp sci major?”

All the answers are there. The fact we don’t hear about it is probably because it doesn’t fit the narrative that intersectionalism wants to tell.

Last time I went to research the history of why women were dominant in tech and then then minority, it was nothing to do with sexism surprise, surprise.

Exposure to computers at a young age is everything.

I will do some more research though and come back <- the best part about HN conversations for me.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#442

Post by octokatt »

prepend wrote: post #422
ibudiallo wrote: post #132

I wrote about my experience as a black developer not too long ago [1]. At first, you are shocked when you hear some insensitive comments made around you. Then you realize no one else even notices, so it must be something wrong with you. Eventually you ignore it. When someone says something stupid, you rationalize it and move on. After all, you are only just here to do a job. But then you get angry. You are angry at e…

> At first, you are shocked when you hear some insensitive comments made around you. Then you realize no one else even notices, so it must be something wrong with you. I think is important to talk about because insensitive comments aren’t always clear. Finding a good way to talk about comments in a healthy way is the difference between me having more peace or stewing. Sometimes people don’t know what they’re saying i…

The trick to what happened in your example is that Dev2 was able to find someone in the office (Colleague) they trusted to talk about the situation.

In some organizations I’ve been in, he could have talked to Dev3, who tells them to “not be so sensitive”, then tells other devs about how Dev2 played the race card.

Dev3 is more common than Colleague. Hell, Dev1 being an idiot and not learning to maybe adjust his language to be inclusive, and maybe read a book about race, is less common than Colleague.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#443

Post by damagednoob »

imbnwa wrote: post #226
sidlls wrote: post #192

"I believe everyone can become a good professional as long as they’re willing to learn." This isn't sexist. I've been told this, and I've told this to junior engineers of both genders. It's not even just a stretch to claim it's sexist, it's ridiculous to. The remark about prioritizing is actually more troublesome, and entirely independent of this comment. "Some things went well, others not so well. I am not giving yo…

>"Some things went well, others not so well. I am not giving you a list specifying each. It has nothing to do with your technical skills; that is normal to have room for improvement. We just feel there is a lack of chemistry with the team." > >This is just the way things are, especially in tech. It's not sexist, it's just unfair and dumb and political. And it's applied to all individuals. I've had it applied to me. I…

> may not be sexist in your case but perhaps so in the author's.

'Perhaps' is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. I'm convinced social media is raising a generation of mind-readers.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#444

Post by pmarreck »

maxehmookau wrote: post #413
pmarreck wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that a firing for "lack of chemistry" (which is a very real and valid concern, btw: https://smallbusiness.chron.com/importance-relationships-wor... ) is, without evidence, veiled discrimination, is also a Grade A dick move, by being a "default victimization mindset". Anecdotal firings of minority hires are insubstantial proof of discrimination; in fact it may be the opposite, if there's a diversity retention…

I'm a random person on the internet and we're unlikely to cross paths, but I would _strongly_ recommend hiring a good HR advisor and people who can explain the problems in your comment. Admitting your mindset isn't productive is hard, but I'd recommend some introspection here. > Yes, I'm a white male, but I'm considering hiring people for the first time and this sort of thing TERRIFIES me because I genuinely want to…

> Admitting your mindset isn't productive is hard

Nah, I am good at admitting fault given sufficient reasoning or evidence, unlike most people. But if I think I have a point, I may double down on it. Observe:

> You're not "helping out" by hiring a women, or a person of color. This mindset has set you up for failure before even starting.

Yeah, maybe. I was trying to suggest that I... ok, fine.

> If there's a valid reason, then there won't be a discriminiation lawsuit.

In the OP's article, the discrimination was assumed to be the reason even if other more valid reasons might have existed. This is not evidential.

> Hire a diverse team from day 1

That's what I was suggesting.

> Does this have a meaning I'm not aware of, or is part of your public, profesisonal persona the enjoyment of a particular female body shape?

Let's just say I am 48 years old and used to subscribe to Heavy Metal (https://www.heavymetal.com/), which prominently features... well, you probably already know. Also that shaming me for my sexuality (without me harassing anyone, of course) is not only not a rational argument, it is discriminatory, and I refuse to apologize for how I am. It may also be convenient in this era of "cancellation for disagreement" (or as the woke leftwing sugarcoats it, "consequences") that I work for myself. >..< If I ever hire someone who has a problem with that, I'll ask them if they feel uncomfortable and work from there (note that women who express open interest in certain male body types do not faze me... but I don't want to create an uncomfortable work environment, so yeah, I'd probably have to remove that, sigh)

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#445

Post by asdff »

neartheplain wrote: post #329
asdff wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, California is 37% white. The University of California freshman class for 2019 was 22% white. So why are tech companies so strikingly white? It makes no sense unless you admit there is a racial bias in the hiring process for knowledge workers.

Far more than 3% of my white tech colleagues have been Jewish, despite making up only 3% of the US and California populations. Would you claim this implies a pro-Jewish, anti-Gentile tech hiring bias? I would disagree with you, and suggest that your kind of logic leads to very dark places.

I would argue that Jewish people are overrepresented in higher education than other groups and generally occupy a higher class level than more recent immigrants or groups under systemic oppression by the legal system in recent decades. Most Jewish families at this point have been in this country for several generations now building roots for their families, just like the Italians and Irish at this point who also came to NYC ~a century ago. They haven't been the whipping boy at the bottom of the economic totem in a long time. These days, that unfavorable position is occupied by more recently migrated groups. I mean the rhetoric from the outgoing president alone about central American immigrants was truly abhorrent and dehumanized them in the eyes of his supporters.

However, that still doesn't explain why in the CompSci major at UC berkely, only 16% were white (1). Yet when you look at the makeup of some of the FANGs in the bay area, most are ~50% white or more (2).

1. https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-califo...

2. https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-report...

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#446

Post by asdff »

worker767424 wrote: post #289
asdff wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, California is 37% white. The University of California freshman class for 2019 was 22% white. So why are tech companies so strikingly white? It makes no sense unless you admit there is a racial bias in the hiring process for knowledge workers.

> 37%...22% Metrics for particular degrees would be more helpful. Some of those 22% are in accounting. > So why are tech companies so strikingly white Um, what? Maybe for early-stage startups. If you'd said "strikingly white, Indian, and East Asian," I'd agree.

Lets look at the compSci major at UC berkely, then, where only 16% were white (1). Yet when you look at the makeup of some of the FANGs in the bay area, most are ~50% white or more (2). That is a striking difference to me.

1. https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-califo...

2. https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-report...

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#447

Post by asdff »

robin21 wrote: post #360
entee wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely it does, a culture that makes people feel unwelcome and doesn’t invest in helping them thrive in an environment where they are in the minority definitely plays a role.

How do you explain Asians making up almost half of FAANG startups?

Because they make up a high percentage of the graduating classes in CS programs (1). However, note how whites only make up 16% of the graduating class at UC berkely, yet many FANG companies are ~50% white (2). Whites are overrepresented at the expense of other groups.

1. https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-califo...

2. https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-report...

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#448

Post by asdff »

xyzzyz wrote: post #287
asdff wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, California is 37% white. The University of California freshman class for 2019 was 22% white. So why are tech companies so strikingly white? It makes no sense unless you admit there is a racial bias in the hiring process for knowledge workers.

"Strikingly white"? Tech industry in California is probably the least white white collar industry in this country.

You have to frame it relative to the pipeline to see how overt this bias is. In the CompSci major at UC berkely, for example, only 16% were white (1). Yet when you look at the makeup of some of the FANGs in the bay area, most are ~50% white or more (2). That is striking to me.

1. https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-califo...

2. https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-report...

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#449

Post by imtringued »

launderthis wrote: post #103
SavantIdiot wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an example of a non-diverse company that doesn't understand diversity trying to implement some kind of diversity. I recall these kinds of ham-fisted attempts everywhere in the late 90's. Ironically, this was most likely cringe because there were no minorities on the staff, a consequence of: no diversity. I observed a similar event in the early 90's when a bunch of white folk in HR tried to show off diversity…

thats what you get when you government mandate things. You cant expect things like diversity and culture to be processed by law. You pretty much have to make it non profitable for companies to not be diverse. Then they company has a personal responsiblity to change rather than a checkbox to check off , much like the "what race are you" checkbox given to pander to their diversity quota. I blame society, people cry abo…

It's an example of treating the symptoms. The company has a hiring pipeline biased toward white people so it tries to compensate by having a second pipeline biased toward non white people when the actual solution is to make one pipeline that works for everyone.

This reminds me of a VC/incubator who was offering a favorable equity loan hybrid where you get no strings funding with the additional benefit that you can buy your equity back at any time for 3x the original investment. It turns out that this met the needs of a lot of black and female founders even though diversity was not even an explicit goal. You could literally feel the HN commenters roll their eyes while they said "So this is just a terrible loan with high interest rates?" as if having access to business loans is completely natural like breathing air, when it's the exception for black people.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#450

Post by imtringued »

kvetching wrote: post #166
SavantIdiot wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an example of a non-diverse company that doesn't understand diversity trying to implement some kind of diversity. I recall these kinds of ham-fisted attempts everywhere in the late 90's. Ironically, this was most likely cringe because there were no minorities on the staff, a consequence of: no diversity. I observed a similar event in the early 90's when a bunch of white folk in HR tried to show off diversity…

It's sickening that a white man doesn't have a chance at any of the big companies, unless he's a programming god. This makes white supremacy even more of a problem because the white people that are there, are some of the best ever.

When it comes to these things you should never blame anyone other than yourself, not because the world is fair and just but rather because it will make you blind to opportunities that are in your favor.
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