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Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

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Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#411

Post by teddyh »

malandrew wrote: post #209
WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I think initial guidelines had that. And then it was all tramped on by some insane incentive like a bonus being dependent on how many "diverse" people a particular person actually gets to hire. Or a stack ranking based on the same. All it takes is just one perverse component in the mix.

> it was all tramped on by some insane incentive like a bonus being dependent on how many "diverse" people a particular person actually gets to hire my company has done this and while it's not illegal to provide the incentives, I don't understand how they can expect it not to result in illegal hiring behavior (discrimination based on protected class) by those optimizing for those incentives.

> I don't understand how they can expect it not to result in illegal hiring behavior

Of course they expect it to result in illegal hiring behavior. They just also expect to always get away with it, because some technically illegal things are nonetheless tolerated by society.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#412

Post by kybernetikos »

vlod wrote: post #134
f154hfds wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'The Case For Color Blindness' by Coleman Hughes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_hRr5J9UUc I was sort of raised to believe 'Color blindness' was the right approach to take. It wasn't until the last couple years that I realized there was significant push back to the philosophy.

Here's Coleman Hughes in an abbreviated version: https://twitter.com/coldxman/status/1305959575930142723?lang... This is the first time I've heard of this push-back. I always thought that the words of Martin Luther King: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." was a good approach?

I think most people can agree with that. The debate is about how far from that we are now and what the appropriate methods to close the gap are.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#413

Post by maxehmookau »

pmarreck wrote: post #43
maxehmookau wrote: post #6

Firing someone for a "lack of chemistry" and refusing to give details is a Grade A dick move.

Assuming that a firing for "lack of chemistry" (which is a very real and valid concern, btw: https://smallbusiness.chron.com/importance-relationships-wor... ) is, without evidence, veiled discrimination, is also a Grade A dick move, by being a "default victimization mindset". Anecdotal firings of minority hires are insubstantial proof of discrimination; in fact it may be the opposite, if there's a diversity retention…

I'm a random person on the internet and we're unlikely to cross paths, but I would _strongly_ recommend hiring a good HR advisor and people who can explain the problems in your comment. Admitting your mindset isn't productive is hard, but I'd recommend some introspection here.

> Yes, I'm a white male, but I'm considering hiring people for the first time and this sort of thing TERRIFIES me because I genuinely want to help out whoever I can

You're not "helping out" by hiring a women, or a person of color. This mindset has set you up for failure before even starting.

> What would I do if my nonwhite, nonmale (or both) hire just isn't working out (for valid reasons) but I can't yet afford to fight a discrimination lawsuit?

If there's a valid reason, then there won't be a discriminiation lawsuit.

> Eventually I realize I NEED more diversity

"Eventually" is too late. Hire a diverse team from day 1. This comment suggests that "diversity", however you define it, is sub-optimal and a burden to be carried.

> but now I've created the perfect conditions for discrimination lawsuits by having an all-white, all-male company

This is a problem of your own making by not making the effort to hire a more diverse team from day 1. The additional potential legal costs are a cost associated with this approach.

Edit: "hourglass-figure adorer" in your HN bio is a bit of a concern. Does this have a meaning I'm not aware of, or is part of your public, profesisonal persona the enjoyment of a particular female body shape?

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#414

Post by OMGWTF »

robin21 wrote: post #341

> Boys are just predisposed for technology by nature This is true. There is scientific evidence that shows men prefer things, women prefer people. This is not to say women can’t succeed in tech or are not as good at tech, but the fact that women choose other fields belies this nature. Women are better at language, social interactions, etc. So when her boss says to use her “feminine” skills to talk to a difficult co-w…

  > > Boys are just predisposed for technology by nature
  >
  > This is true. There is scientific evidence that shows men
  > prefer things, women prefer people. This is not to say
  > women can’t succeed in tech or are not as good at tech,
  > but the fact that women choose other fields belies this
  > nature.
To me it seems the problem here is applying statistical population data to individuals. Those "differences" in interests usually are ranges of interest with big enough overlapping areas. Oversimplifying this by only thinking about means or medians is a horrible way to judge individuals.

Even if most women prefer to work with people as opposed to working on things, it does not tell you anything about the specific candidate one is considering for a job.

Regarding the quote from the article: It was used to dismiss the idea of also going to high schools instead of just going to colleges to promote the companies opportunities. So while going into high schools to promote job opportunities in tech likely can not eliminate that general difference in interests, it can have an effect on those women who would be interested but are not convinced or aware (enough) yet.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#415

Post by animal531 »

asdff wrote: post #51
908B64B197 wrote: post #2

> I was even madder when I found the data science interns hired in a parallel recruitment process had been submitted to technical challenges. That's the miracle of "affirmative action" or whatever you want to call it. When looking at candidates internally, if a company decides to do affirmative action there are those that you know are there because of their skills (non-diverse individuals) and there are the other one…

That's one take. Another take is that people want chums at work. An average person hires someone they see themselves as being friends with rather than the best qualified candidate. Animals such as bees, monkeys, and ourselves are also biased to favor their genetic group (kin selection). In other words, you subconsciously favor people who look like you and act like you. In that light, the non diverse office might be s…

I spent some some doing work for a recruitment company and my takeaway from that was that culture fit is the #1 predictor of a successful placement.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#416

Post by robin21 »

entee wrote: post #367
robin21 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you explain Asians making up almost half of FAANG startups?

Note that as far as I know, all the founders of FAANG were white guys. As for why many Asian people work there, I think there is a strong bias toward engineering/medicine among many immigrant communities that came from a relatively educated background in their home countries (I count myself in that cohort, though I’m not Asian). Crucially though, once they got into the community they were more likely to blend into th…

https://kstatic.googleusercontent.com/files/25badfc6b6d1b33f...

See leadership.

30% Asian (6% us pop) 60% white (65% us pop)

Asians widely over represented.

Should we give less jobs to Asians and more to blacks and Hispanics?

This kind of points to socioeconomic and educational opportunities in early life. Blacks come from poorer backgrounds etc. But why bring race into it? Why not lift up people from poorer backgrounds of all races, instead of racist affirmative action policies.

These diversity reports are basically saying: we need to make our employees less racist and sexist when hiring.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#417

Post by robin21 »

entee wrote: post #369
robin21 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but all you hear about is hell stories The reality is distorted though. Like in this article many would argue that none of it is sexist and it is just human behavior. Whereas other women reading this have their biases confirmed. I really struggle to find any sexism stories that describe situations that don’t also happen to men. Human nature is to pattern match. It’s easier to blame groups than to blame individuals…

I used to think this way, but I think it’s a mistake. If something happens to men but happens far more often to women, then there’s a problem. The fact that we keep hearing about these stories, with various shades of face-palming awfulness should be a sign that something is wrong. “Use your femininity”? I’ve been working professionally in various STEM positions for 15+ years, never once has someone told me to “use my…

“Masculinity” does not predispose someone to working better with people. “Use your masculinity to help carry some boxes up the stairs” - is this sexist?

I don’t think sex plays into capability but more so motivation. If there wasn’t science to indicate there is a difference in what men and woman are drawn to...then you could write it off...but there are differences and those differences seem to play out.

The fact we hear more stories from women is because they are on trend of sexism. Whereas the same stories from men are just office politics. Take any office politics story, make the aggressor male and the subject female and voila - you can claim it’s sexism.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#418

Post by pvaldes »

ttz wrote: post #390
pvaldes wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't it a bit weird to have someone who is not Native American tell an actual Native American how they should feel. Not. Human experience is universal. Every single human in the planet can understand how other humans feel. We all have experienced similar events before and can provide solid advice about it to fellow humans. "You can't understand me, because I'm ... (native /black / woman / trans / philatelic...) an…

Oh please. Spew this BS elsewhere to people who are actually gullible enough to not see through this rhetorical regurgitation. Human experience is not universal. Try going back in time and be a slave. Or a victim of the Nanjing rape. Tell me, with a straight face, that you can truly understand the pain and suffering those people went through. You think a royal family member can understand what it is like to be whippe…

Are you aware that the term 'slave' cames originary from slavic people, also called 'white people'?

There are lots of white people perfectly able to understand what was to be a slave in Siberia, Germany, Spain or Roma, and for sure asian people could tell us about their own quote of pain. Please don't feel so special, there is plenty of s*t for everyone in the history of humanity.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#419

Post by brianberns »

sidlls wrote: post #192

"I believe everyone can become a good professional as long as they’re willing to learn." This isn't sexist. I've been told this, and I've told this to junior engineers of both genders. It's not even just a stretch to claim it's sexist, it's ridiculous to. The remark about prioritizing is actually more troublesome, and entirely independent of this comment. "Some things went well, others not so well. I am not giving yo…

> The second is a gross demonstration of "anecdotes are not data."

The second one doesn't even support the premise. Video games aren't more "technical" than Facebook.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#420

Post by [deleted] »

pacman2 wrote: post #350
alienthrowaway wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honestly, I feel like I received more discrimination as a white, western European in the US than you did. What is the point of bringing this up - is this thread the oppression olympics/"Four Yorkshiremen" of discrimination? Do I have a bit for you: White, western European, you say? Try being an immigrant as a black, African in tech - I'm sure I had it worse than you, at least you people assume you had electricity g…

You work in tech in the US, a place I had to leave because I did not have a job, shelter, food, health insurance and had to go to China. I have black friends that work in tech, patent law or whatever in the US. Yes, racism exists, no doubt. They told me anecdotes. But I am not very impressed by your complaining. And this is the most polite way I can phrase it. Don't like it in the US? Go to Africa. Good opportunities…

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