Live data from Hacker News

When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

mleverything.substack.com

151–160 of 307 posts

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a great example of how people will use an easy quantification just because it exists. There’s a popular mindset that seems to think you can’t argue against numbers and math because they’re cold and scientific. Who cares if its a stupid number, it’s mathematically/scientifically correct!

A measure that becomes a target often stops being a good measure.

Yes, but sometimes it was garbage in the first place, too.

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#152
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started reading about 10 years ago so don't have a great reference for earlier writing. But just looking at some of ones from this year highlighted on longform, there was some great stuff here: https://longform.org/archive/publications/new-yorker For instance "Trolling the Great Outdoors", "Why Does the Pandemic Seem to Be Hitting Some Countries Harder Than Others?", and "Fish Farming Is Feeding the Globe. What’s t…

It's not that they are universally terrible now, just that they've fallen into the same political-hype blackhole as everyone else. I remember looking at their home page a few years ago and seeing the top 10 articles all being about Trump. That obsession with politics didn't really happen in previous eras and even when it did, it was counterbalanced by some legitimate literary criticism. Looking at their home page now…

I fault David Remnick, the editor, for this. He really became obsessed with Trump during his presidency.

The thing is, it seems like Mr. Remnick has been a very good administrator of the magazine, guiding it through a very rough time for print media, so the chances that he will be replaced or step down anytime soon are slim.

That said, I am looking forward to a fresh perspective for the magazine in the future even if I still mostly enjoy it now.

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#153

Something that I think is rarely discussed when this topic comes up is the loss of prestige. Working for The New York Times or The New Yorker used to have some weight with pretty much everyone in the country. That is no longer the case. It hasn't been so for at least a couple of decades. Extremely erudite-yet-mostly-apolitical people like Lewis Lapham [1] went to literary magazines and high-end journalism a half-cent…

I personally think it's post-modernism and the adjacent ideologies are responsible for this. Since everything is subjective and there's no objective notion of truth and it's all moral relativism, one has the license to do anything they want. That's why activism and ideologies took over professional integrity.

Well, that's essentially what Allan Bloom argued what was happening in 1987. 33 years later, he certainly seems more right than wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Closing_of_the_American_Mi...

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#154

> So I threw in the entire text into Hemingway, an app that identifies poor or confusing writing. I found this interesting, because it seemed unbelievable to me that an app could be able to tell good writing from bad writing in a reliable or useful way. So I took excerpts from Shirley Jackson's The Lottery and pasted them in. (For anyone unfamiliar with it, The Lottery is considered a masterpiece of a short story, an…

I believe red and yellow just mean the 'reading level' expected. When writing for a very broad audience, or writing things that need to be short and easy to read like e-mails, you want to aim for 'lower' reading levels.

I pasted some excerpts from a paper I was reading and it gave the 'Post-Graduate' reading level. Does not mean it's bad writing, just hard to read (it's probably inevitable at that level).

It's probably a great tool for daily work, some people at my workplace used Grammarly, but it's paid, so this could be a good alternative.

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I've always wondered: why should business writing be like Hemingway's writing? He wasn't writing for that audience. Seems like it would be better to find examples of good writing for a business audience and use those. Same thing for journalistic writing: that's not what Hemingway was doing. Maybe take all the Pulitzer winning journalism from a few decades and use that or something. But it just seems weird to pick…

It’s a good question and one I don’t know how to answer absolutely. The reason why I think it most generally applies to “business writing” is because this area is most likely to value efficiency over others. I don’t think it’s meant to say business folk should write like Hemingway, but that Hemingway is the most popular writer in this style.

>>this area is most likely to value efficiency

Agreed. The general style values simple sentences which helps reading speed and comprehension, especially for audiences that don't share your native language. And it reduces fluff. Adverbs, for example, generally don't help make a point in business writing - data does.

See the example in that last sentence? I snuck a premise instead of stating it as a hypothesis or providing data to support it. At best that causes confusion for the reader and at worst it can mislead people that aren't carefully watching out for pitfalls like that.

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I suppose you could read some critical analysis of it if you're interested in why it's considered great; I'm no expert. For what it's worth I agree with its status in the canon: it's a powerful and carefully articulated story in a very compact form with a unique, exciting, and thought-provoking premise. The perfect short story.

Yes it is good entertainment, but wouldnt then the kids read those anyways?

That’s not a given, unfortunately. I believe that the intended long term strategy is to give kids a glimpse of something that is outwardly interesting, in order to increase their internal motivation to seek out other good reading material. Not necessarily to get it “right” the first time.

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#159

I write semi-professionally, and it amazes me how much you have to unlearn from your time in college, which required unlearning from your time in high school, which required unlearning from your time in grade school. I still remember a horrifying 2-page (gasp!) paper from 5th grade where the requirements where so stringent (The 5th sentence has to be a thesis statement! Start each paragraph with a transition. Each pa…

Since we’re getting more into pedagogy here... I think this falls into the category of learning the rules so you know which ones to break. Several years ago, I was helping an underachieving high school student write a persuasive essay and she was helplessly lost. She didn’t know what the five-paragraph format was (intro, discussion point 1, discussion point 2, discussion point 3, conclusion). Without that, this was just a complete failure of an essay, or maybe an assignment never completed.

If she had learned and practiced the 5th grade style that you learned, this persuasive essay in high school would have been a piece of cake. She’d be able to structure her thinking and communicate a point.

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#160

> So I threw in the entire text into Hemingway, an app that identifies poor or confusing writing. I found this interesting, because it seemed unbelievable to me that an app could be able to tell good writing from bad writing in a reliable or useful way. So I took excerpts from Shirley Jackson's The Lottery and pasted them in. (For anyone unfamiliar with it, The Lottery is considered a masterpiece of a short story, an…

I am a bit surprised about: " The Lottery is considered a masterpiece of a short story, and is widely taught in American high schools." Really? I have difficulties understanding this. Is it because it is interesting for the kids through its shock value and manageable length? But this then looks to me like declaring ketchup to be vegetables so enough veggies are eaten at the canteen.

Are you questioning that it’s a masterpiece or why it should be taught in schools?

For the latter it’s because issues students deal with in school directly parallel those in the story.

Post reply on HN