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Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

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Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#141
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of it feels like it comes from a different development philosophy. Vscode is a "text editor" or a "code editor". Usually this means that it's fairly lightweight, supports every language under the sun, is highly configurable and extensible, but doesn't have a lot of very in-depth features, and also partially relies on third-party extensions for deeper functionality. Jetbrains on the other hand works on IDEs built…

I wonder if you have had the chance to use a Jetbrains IDE with a professional license. Doing so gives you access to more or less the content of all the other "flavors" as plugins (it's basically all IntelliJ underneath). For example, I've been using PyCharm for both our python backend _and_ our React + Typescript frontend, all in the same project window, with the same features regarding syntax, linting, refactoring,…

I have. IntelliJ ultimate edition still has fewer features for PHP specifically than Phpstorm.

Presumably not because it actually has fewer features, but because "the debugger" now has 150 options instead of like 5.

Also, these super-featured IDEs still won't support languages that Jetbrains doesn't have a specific IDE for. For instance, Delphi. Sure they'll support syntax highlighting somehow, and there might be one plugin.

VSCode probably has 20+ search results if you look up Delphi

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Embrace: put out an open source code editor. Extend: have a plugin system that everyone can contribute to (sounds like eclipse or IntelliJ CE) and even make money off of. Plugins don't have to be free. Extinguish: make your own plugins with full refactoring support etc. for the languages you see most actively used (everyone uses it for Go and Python now? Make a good enough plugin for that. Nobody uses it for Erlang a…

It remains to be seen whether they will find this economical when they are not making any direct revenue on the product. I understand that VSCode is part of a grand strategic plan that goes beyond revenue, but I seriously doubt that they'd be willing to internally maintain the absolute truckload of code that would ensue from getting to feature parity with Jetbrains on languages like Java or Python. I'd wager at some…

A short read and should give enough examples and descriptions of the strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...

Once you've killed off the competition, a lot of other things don't really matter much any more. From the money perspective, it's a well known strategy to loose money to kill off the competition. It's just about who has the deeper pockets/better stomach for it. Microsoft has traditionally been able to do it and I have no doubts that they would still have the stomach for it. I don't know if their pockets are still as deep as they used to be. Windows (and Office etc.) used to be so dominant and such a cash cow that it enabled a lot of the other strategies, but then again they also had to get Windows to that point first. The landscape looks a bit different nowadays I'd wager, given Apple's and Google's footholds on mobile but then again, I wasn't really old enough back in the day, to really compare from my own experience, what the landscape looked like back then with Apple, Amiga, Atari, SGI, Sun etc. in the mix.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#143

Most of this post is just speculation like " I seriously doubt it will work well in an average cafe though " without much substance. Either test it or report on it, or at least discuss its shortcomings based on some technical merits. And frankly I don't care how well it works on "spotty café wifi". If the wifi sucks I wouldn't sit there and work anyway. As for the language server protocol, nothing stops IDEA from doi…

One of the things that baffles me is the rust-Lang support. Rust-lang has an official dual-licensed MIT/Apache language server protocol implementation (RLS) under active development. In my view it’s currently a better experience than the custom IntelliJ one. Instead of collaborating though I see IntelliJ continuing on the path of their custom implementation. Every week RLS gives an update on their progress and so doe…

There is nothing inherently wrong with solving a problem multiple ways. While it's usually good for smaller players in a space to work together, I'm always happy to see others that trod their own path. They can make different choices/tradeoffs, and learn from each other. This usually leads to better outcomes for both of their user bases.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#144

In my opinion, one killer feature of VSCode is the ability to connect to WSL, remote server and Docker container. As someone mainly developing on WSL2, I use this feature everyday. I only use Idea when I need to use Java or Kotlin, because its language support is really good.

> or Kotlin, because its language support is really good.

I've been using Kotlin for about a year now at work. I feel that "IDEA has good Kotlin support" isn't quite the right way to say it. It's become clear to me that the language is explicitly designed to be read and written in IDEA. Receivers (changing `this` per-scope) and `it` (to a lesser degree) are really poor syntax features to read in plaintext. But IDEA automatically adds the plaintext for you so you don't notice.

Genius business move by JetBrains. Get some corporations hooked on some sugar on top of Java, and now they have to pay that fat license forever.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#145
The link seems to be dead but here's my thought anyway.

People in this thread mentioned brilliant factors among those IDE/editors, but the 2 cents I want to add is their difference is related to the way they work, or how people work on them.

VSCode: LSP reflects the mentality of VSCode - it's extensible, it's working but it usually doesn't offer first-class experiences. It usually aims to serve the intersection or the common part of languages first, then the specific language.

The idea is very akin to Emacs, in which the community tries to find the abstraction of functionality, and then people can work on different implementations at the same time - there's Helm for completion, and Flycheck for checking in the first place, then there's a whole bunch of implementations. The good is it solves the m*n problem, but the bad is the experience is not good as tailored for specific languages. Actually, one specific struggle in the Emacs community right now is choosing between LSP and language-specific plugins.

Intellij: It is on the other side of the spectrum. It's polished, feels pragmatic for major languages they're targeting. Unlike LSP and VSCode, It was aimed to be the best Java IDE, and it did it. Now you can see the inheritance panel for a lot of languages that don't even really care about inheritance.

So IMO it's like Conway's law. The key difference between VSCode and Intellij is because of the way they work - VSCode was built on community, and Microsoft is more like a facilitator. While IntelliJ is driven by a single company, and the plugins and communities are supplement features.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#146
Speaking as a corporate programmer working from home indefinitely, I'd kill for IDEA Viewer. My laptop can't have code on it, so I'm forced to remote desktop to my workstation to use IntelliJ and CLion remotely, which is a middling experience at best. A light protocol for synchronizing the frontend with the IDE backend would be excellent.

You can look at my profile and various papers we've published about why code on laptops is both hard technically and draw your own conclusions beyond that.

As an aside, I also use IntelliJ on my own projects for Rust. The Rust LSP is getting there, but nothing beats IntelliJ Rust yet, and that's been my experience across the suite. JetBrains tackles the hardest 20% of the problems (like partial compilation and indexing) and executes extremely well.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actually intellij IDEs are quite fast nowadays and it improve regularly. I want what you're having. I've been actually trying DataGrip these past weeks and even though I only used it lightly and I'm on a pretty decent computer, it's terribly sluggish. Is there a magic option to make it run faster?

Don't know about datagrip, I was speaking for Idea and webstorm anyway they are mostly the same codebase. You can increase the available ram to intellij in the settings (under the help section if I remember correctly) My old thinkpad was really slow with Idea because my RAM would easily overflow and therefore spam swap usage. The secret sauce is to go for 16GB of ram, any developer deserve it. Also if you feel advent…

I already happen to run an EAP and Linux without mitigations (they're less bad on AMD CPUs anyway). I guess I'll try increasing the heap, but I hope it doesn't need 16 GB for itself.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#148
post #21
post #3

I don’t really see IntelliJ and VSCode as competitors. VSCode competes with atom and other full-featured text editors (vim, emacs) ... its got great adoption amongst the newer generation of programmers that think those editors are old school and user hostile. VSCodes Java, Python, and Golang support is miles behind IntelliJ. FWIW, on my team at Microsoft where we write a lot of Go, theres a 50/50 split between Intell…

I'm a current MS intern, curious what work ya'll are doing in Go. Would you be up for a call sometime?

Ex MS employee (and former intern). Somewhat new to Go (and using VSCode full time) - but it's the language of choice for my job right now. Go seems to be popular in backend apps (non windows mostly) where concurrency and performance are important. The tooling around go for performance profiling and optimization are rather good IMO, and quite friendly if you are accustomed to Unix style CLI tools.

I do agree with the other comments that the language server is buggy but it works quite well when it works. I may be a bit bias when dealing with tooling since I came from Xcode where workflow breaking bugs was the norm.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#149
Offtopic: I can't seem to resolve this website through CloudFlare's DNS servers, what's going on here? Are they blocking Cloudflare's resolvers? Is there something wrong with Cloudflare? What is going on here?

In my experience, IDEA is just better in the things it does well and just worse in the things it doesn't. Without spending days searching for extensions and configurations, Jetbrains' products beat Code every time when it comes to Java and the related ecosystem. When it comes to C/C++, Clion is one of the best IDEs there are, and VS code can only get close through extensions and a buttload of JSON.

For frontend, both suck equally as much, but that's just because modern development has turned into a Javascript mess and frontend developers seem to make it their personal mission to change up and replace the entire ecosystem every five years. No IDE can keep up with such an ecosystem without becoming janky and unpredictable.

The language server feature of Code makes it excellent for languages that weren't originally included in the product. For example, Clion has Rust support, but that support comes nowhere near what VS Code can do with the Rust Analyzer addon. Other languages have similar problems with Jetbrains' products; the language server for Code makes it integrate with other languages so well that the two barely even compete.

But, for most of the work I do, the advantages of VS Code seem irrelevant to me. If you develop in a quirky or brand new language, use WSL2 (because you can't or won't use normal Linux) or if you're writing C# code on and for Windows, then it makes sense to use Code, but I just don't see a lot of people with these problems.

The biggest advantage of VS Code I can see is that through its addons, it gets to become fully-featured for free. You might argue that it's open source as well, but as far as I know there's still functionality that Microsoft has hidden away (C# debugging) in open source builds due to licensing issues. In my opinion the pricing on Jetbrains' tools is pretty good; the tools have increased my productivity enough that I'm more than willing to invest in these tools.

Re: Reflections on IDEA vs VS Code

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if you have had the chance to use a Jetbrains IDE with a professional license. Doing so gives you access to more or less the content of all the other "flavors" as plugins (it's basically all IntelliJ underneath). For example, I've been using PyCharm for both our python backend _and_ our React + Typescript frontend, all in the same project window, with the same features regarding syntax, linting, refactoring,…

I have. IntelliJ ultimate edition still has fewer features for PHP specifically than Phpstorm. Presumably not because it actually has fewer features, but because "the debugger" now has 150 options instead of like 5. Also, these super-featured IDEs still won't support languages that Jetbrains doesn't have a specific IDE for. For instance, Delphi. Sure they'll support syntax highlighting somehow, and there might be one…

It also kills performance when you have so many languages configured.
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