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Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

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Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#121

Post by jkhdigital »

aspaceman wrote: post #85
sokoloff wrote: post #26

I think there’s a default assumption in academia that students bring the motivation and perspiration to their work. The advisor doesn’t pull them through the program; the student pushes and the advisor guides. My spouse and several friends have PhDs and I do not, so my exposure is secondhand, but when I hear that circle of friends/friends-of-friends complaining about poor advisors, I often hear details about the grad…

I’ve always wondered how people dismiss academic abuse. Now I know! It’s “cause the students are just lazy / expect to be told what to do”. Bullshit. My previous academic advisor would take out his aggressions and frustrations on his students. One specific instance, he began yelling at the lab because there were footprints on the couch - (I had taken a nap last night after finishing work, whoops). “Whose responsibili…

And it sounds like you might be extrapolating based on one egregious example...

I think we can agree that there are abusive advisors, and immature/unmotivated students in academia. Can abusive professors get away with more than they otherwise could due to the culture of academia? Yeah, I’d probably agree with that. But that doesn’t mean academia is full of such people, or that every student who complains of abuse is actually experiencing objective abuse.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#122

Post by angrais »

throwaway98234 wrote: post #2

My experience, PhD, 10 years postdoc, 10 years in startups (all in UK). I actually didn't get any hassle as a PhD student, possibly since I was a mature student and wouldn't take any shit, I didn't need to get into any fights but I was willing to and I guess that comes out as confidence. As a postdoc I experienced several attempts at bullying, all worked out in my favour as I was sensible enough to join the union on…

10 years postdoc? Jeeze! What field were you in?

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#123

Post by Master_Odin »

varjag wrote: post #36
fgstart wrote: post #13

I'd say that the issues in your first paragraph also occur in industry, albeit with plausible deniability and not directly. Further annoyances in industry: - Teams can suck you dry, you begin to lose your identity and get mediocre (since that is the safest and most valued option). - Managers take the credit for your work. - Managers can be entirely unrealistic, often demanding things that are not possible from a CS p…

In this market is an important caveat. Most people here have no recollections of what a bad market is, but it'll really make you wish you were in academia.

Getting a good job (with tenure) to stay in academia is at this point pretty equivalent if not worse than a bad market in industry.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#124

Post by jkhdigital »

anjc wrote: post #110
chriskanan wrote: post #23

I'm a professor and have worked in industry. Let me break down the issues a bit on the education side, first. Almost always by year 4+ most PhD students are fatigued and starting to get very weary. I was definitely one of them, and at times I did feel like my supervisor wasn't helping my career development or giving me enough mentoring. He is a wonderful, kind, and creative person and he spent 1-2 hours per week with…

> Almost always by year 4+ most PhD students are fatigued and starting to get very weary Currently experiencing this weariness and my output isn't great. Covid restrictions + WFH are making it worse I feel but ultimately it's my responsibility to do well. Any tips for not looking like a hopeless case to your supervisor at this stage?

The struggle is real... my most productive deep work has always happened while standing next to my advisor in his office, staring at his chalkboard and working through research problems together. Can’t do that over Zoom...

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#126

Post by jkhdigital »

xtracto wrote: post #69
lvice wrote: post #35

I believe that abuse is more common in academia. A relationship between a supervisor and his direct reports, both in academia and industry, is impacted by the power that the supervisor can exert. The relationship between a supervisor and his PhD students is not the same as a manager and his direct reports in industry because: - The students are invested and committed into their PhDs for several years. It is much hard…

This rings true. I would only add a comment I heard someone say: a PhD is not an investment. It is an expense. If you want to invest in your education do an MBA or get certificates. Those are investments that will pay off later. A PhD is an expense you pay to do whatever research you want to. On the student lock to the PhD it may also be because students get scholarships. In my case my government gave be a scholarshi…

> a PhD is not an investment. It is an expense.

I... don’t see how one could make this statement and actually believe it. Food and housing are an expense. Healthcare is an expense. A PhD is an arduous and deeply personal journey to push the limits of your field and your own intellectual capabilities. If you see it as an “expense” then I believe you are doing it wrong.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#127

Post by anjc »

jkhdigital wrote: post #124
anjc wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost always by year 4+ most PhD students are fatigued and starting to get very weary Currently experiencing this weariness and my output isn't great. Covid restrictions + WFH are making it worse I feel but ultimately it's my responsibility to do well. Any tips for not looking like a hopeless case to your supervisor at this stage?

The struggle is real... my most productive deep work has always happened while standing next to my advisor in his office, staring at his chalkboard and working through research problems together. Can’t do that over Zoom...

Same actually. I haven't had those type of conversations, and moments of inspiration/motivation in a year now, with everything.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#128

Post by jkhdigital »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #8

It's hard to really, really, deeply compare what's more common and less common, because there's not really a lot of meaningful reporting. If we could report on the problem in earnest, we'd be fixing it. What I can say is: - if you can make the computers go beep boop in industry , then you can much more readily leave and take your skills elsewhere, and you won't have to put up with the abuse. you don't usually have to…

You’re also more likely to encounter gross incompetence in industry, unfortunately. Harder to get away with that and find a job as an academic (in math and hard sciences, to be clear).

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#129

Post by lvice »

jkhdigital wrote: post #126
xtracto wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This rings true. I would only add a comment I heard someone say: a PhD is not an investment. It is an expense. If you want to invest in your education do an MBA or get certificates. Those are investments that will pay off later. A PhD is an expense you pay to do whatever research you want to. On the student lock to the PhD it may also be because students get scholarships. In my case my government gave be a scholarshi…

> a PhD is not an investment. It is an expense. I... don’t see how one could make this statement and actually believe it. Food and housing are an expense. Healthcare is an expense. A PhD is an arduous and deeply personal journey to push the limits of your field and your own intellectual capabilities. If you see it as an “expense” then I believe you are doing it wrong.

I see xtracto's point. You are "paying" to pursue a PhD in the form of missed additional revenue that you could have achieved by starting in the industry earlier on. Or pursue other paths that could be more industry-focused (MBA). It's an intellectual investment, sure. But for most PhDs, it will be a net negative on the financial side, and a potential hyper-specialization trap for moving to the private/industry sector.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#130

Post by znpy »

The good thing about industry vs academia is that it's fairly easy to change things in the industry and to beat your fists on the table when things go wrong.

Simplest case: you switch jobs. Harder case: you sue your employer.

This is not the case in academia, where things are basically transactional: either you pull through the whole thing and get out with a PhD, or you basically wasted n years of your life. Yeah you can sue people around, but I've hardly seen people lose their job even on serious issues (eg: a professor saying racial slurs during a lesson, recorded via microsoft teams. some generic apology by the university dean headmaster and it ended there, no real/actual consequences. she's still there teaching, afaik).

A lot of smart people smell this during their 'thesis-in-the-lab-with-the-prof-and-the-phd-candidates' and politely decline the invite to apply for a phd-candidate position.

Not sure this answers your questions, just wanted to add my 2¢.

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