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Zero Data App

0data.app

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Re: Zero Data App

#31

Post by jefftk »

bluesign wrote: post #26
vasco wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a unique ID to netflix, I can be authenticated through that because I know my netflix credentials. They do not need to know my "data pod" ID for this - the server just needs to reply to the data pod that queried it with the right credentials. Depending on "data pod" implementation you could also have the "netflix.com" managed fields only be editable by a call from "netflix.com" API, which I then decide to appr…

I am little confused. It is write-only from vendor side seems like vendor will sign something for authenticity. Something like token signature. So it has to have my "pod ID", otherwise I can replay this data, with another "pod ID". Ofc netflix or your pod, can rotate this ID, but that also requires netflix etc to constantly sign new IDs.

I think you could do something like this with web.dev/trust-tokens (same idea as PrivacyPass), where the server can vouch for you without saying who you are.

Re: Zero Data App

#32

Post by theamk »

vasco wrote: post #6

I'd like to see this applied to online advertising, making cross-site tracking against the law and forcing advertisers to bid per real-time request for user data and the money is paid to the user themselves. Currently advertising platforms make more money by allowing advertisers to better target their ads. I have nothing against this as long as I'm paid for access to my data at the price I think is right (might be MA…

The problem is someone making good money will likely not bother with that system - they will just say “my info is not for sale” instead of trying to figure out settings which would earn them them 0.1% of their regular income.

So this system will mostly be used by the people with little disposable income, enthusiasts who enjoy gaming the system, and scammers with tricks to maximize earnings. Those people are not going to spend much money on buying expensive products, so the advertisers will find out that this bidding thing is just not bringing any results.

Re: Zero Data App

#33

Post by dataflow »

haggy wrote: post #29
skeeks wrote: post #15

The name is imho inappropriate chosen. Under zero data , I understand that the app needs no data at all.

What useful software exists which works on no data at all? Even a calculator requires data

I guess those password managers that generate a password based on your master key and the website URL would presumably require storing zero data.

Re: Zero Data App

#34

Post by thefounder »

dataflow wrote: post #33
haggy wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What useful software exists which works on no data at all? Even a calculator requires data

I guess those password managers that generate a password based on your master key and the website URL would presumably require storing zero data.

The masterkey is data

Re: Zero Data App

#35

Post by jpomykala »

Zero data apps are great because in most cases you can just move your data to any other service provider. I’m leading a service where I’m trying to emphasize that vendor-agnostic solutions are a fair deal for a customer and provider.

Re: Zero Data App

#37

Post by Jugurtha »

600frogs wrote: post #2

For the vast majority of users, isn't having solid export options enough, or even better than this? Your average non-techie isn't going to want to configure each app to get syncing with NextCloud or Dropbox working just right, they just want to perform a task with the app and move on with their lives, regardless of where the data lives. And with an export option, if the app dies, you've still got your blog posts or p…

If you're doing trivial things, or things where the data is the content itself, then none of this matters and you would be right. However, if the data is something more "meta" or is tied to the product itself, it becomes a bit trickier. If the app is not just a tool, but the whole workflow of a team or organization revolves around a workflow the app provides, it can be tricky, because the data is not just the content, but the result of the workflow.

Just imagine. You use Duolingo to learn a language and it shuts down. What do you do? What's the export format. Will the new product have the same levels / trees/ etc? Very unlikely. You'll have to start all over again. It's not about the raw data, it's about the data that your work has generated.

If you're doing machine learning, then there's the raw data, but there's also all the other data resulting from your hard work: training jobs, experiment tracking, parameters and artifacts and metrics, models.

The question becomes... First, how important is your product in the user's life? If it's important, they'll rely on it a lot and use it a lot to do things that are important for them, or for their organization.

Then, the service needs to provide export options and send you a shutdown notification. These are not always true but, assuming they are, you'll have to scramble to exfiltrate your data.

Then when you exfiltrate your data, it's an export. You'll have to find another product or service, and then somehow hope you can import that data to the new product, and then set up another workflow.

And here I'm talking about consumer products. For enterprise, there are many parameters including who the vendor is, procurement, team size. Meaning if you are Google/Amazon/Microsoft/etc, then a lot of people will treat you like a utility that will continue to be there, even with the track record of some of these of shutting down products and services (how many products has Google shut down over the years).

Look at this thread[0] I posted about our machine learning platform and the conversation that followed. The person objected that as long as it wasn't open source, they wouldn't use it. But digging a bit deeper, it turns out what they wanted wasn't really open source, but open source was one solution/implementation to their underlying problem. Trust you'll be there or control.

- [0]: https://old.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/kolobf/p_c...

Re: Zero Data App

#38

Post by elondaits »

NavinF wrote: post #9
vasco wrote: post #6

I'd like to see this applied to online advertising, making cross-site tracking against the law and forcing advertisers to bid per real-time request for user data and the money is paid to the user themselves. Currently advertising platforms make more money by allowing advertisers to better target their ads. I have nothing against this as long as I'm paid for access to my data at the price I think is right (might be MA…

>My government could authenticate that I am indeed from country A, and my pod's data would be signed by them This is gonna happen sooner or later, but I really don't like it. Once most users have a cryptographically signed national ID on their PC, a lot more websites will require you to provide it. Sites like Netflix that region lock media will force you to show your ID just to sign up Won't be long before companies…

Netflix region locks content that they have to license, not their original content. Sometimes content is restricted because of previous exclusive licenses given to traditional channels (e.g. cable).

I imagine that as everything moves to “streaming first”, and old licenses expire, we ‘ll leave región locking behind. Video games are not región locked, even though prices are adjusted for different markets.

Movies and series should move more and more towards a global market. When I was a kid movies took months to arrive to theaters in my country (for various reasons, like reusing celluloid or making better predictions of performance)... now big blockbusters premier simultaneously everywhere because a good portion of marketing is global.

Re: Zero Data App

#40

Post by 600frogs »

ajb wrote: post #4
600frogs wrote: post #2

For the vast majority of users, isn't having solid export options enough, or even better than this? Your average non-techie isn't going to want to configure each app to get syncing with NextCloud or Dropbox working just right, they just want to perform a task with the app and move on with their lives, regardless of where the data lives. And with an export option, if the app dies, you've still got your blog posts or p…

No, because exporting is not automatic. Most users won't do it. It's true that most users don't want to configure remote storage for each app. That's solvable though. There should be a way to store your remote storage preferences and just give each app permission to store there in one click.

"Just make it one click to store it in a wide selection of remote storage options" is easier said than done. From the standard user's point of view, they don't need to be reguarly exporting, they can just use that option if they want to change apps or if the app itself is at end of life.
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