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Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

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Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#711

Post by heterodoxxed »

zamfi wrote: post #708
heterodoxxed wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

| people who haven't been displaced? Displacement far enough that they are outside of the local political jurisdiction is specific to there. In places like Peoria, it's just further economic immiseration within Peoria. Most of America is not being gentrified, rents are just rising. There's a difference. | (a) there isn't much evidence for There is plenty of evidence for that. You might just have a recency bias. | neg…

> Most of America is not being gentrified, rents are just rising. Peoria has a 50%+ homeownership rate. Most of the people voting locally are not facing rising rents, let alone rents at all. > There is plenty of evidence for that. You might just have a recency bias. > I don't put people mobilizing into the ideological framework of "the market". Ah, I see, you don’t actually care about whether people act in their own…

| But those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it.

Ha! Right back atcha, kid.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#712

Post by Red_Leaves_Flyy »

jboog wrote: post #701
Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A federal housing guarantee. In every instance where someone cannot find affordable and sufficient housing for themselves and their family then they are entitled to the live in an unoccupied unit that meets their families needs (1 bedroom per kid and 1 for parents, at most 30 minutes by, public transit from their primary job, or car if they have a reliable vehicle and the income to maintain it) for at most 30% of the…

" If this kills a business then so be it. Businesses are not entitled to" or "Yeah my policy is toxic political poison that will ensure the defeat of any politician who runs on it outside SF and Manhattan but SO WHAT?"

Your rebuttal is that change is a hard sell? Did I read that right?

In that case why have politicians at all?

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#713

Post by jboog »

_-___________-_ wrote: post #709
jboog wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I start talking about coal deaths in the US, then immediately broaden it to worldwide nuclear deaths. Lie about Nuclear deaths by only counting US, then immediately after lying bring up Chernobyl and Fukushima to prove I lied or something?? You're trying to ascribe malice and dishonesty because you happen to disagree with me. I don't know why the internet does this to people

> You're trying to ascribe malice and dishonesty because you happen to disagree with me. I don't know why the internet does this to people Sigh. I made it clear in the first comment that I don't disagree with you. I would love to see wider adoption of nuclear power. The sentence that you wrote was inaccurate, and I felt that more accurate wording would improve the quality of the debate. I don't see the point in engag…

You're Right!

The sentence devoid of context is misleading!!

But the thing is cherry-picking a single sentence without its proper context is misleading if not downright dishonest itself.

I was clearly talking about COAL/FF DEATHS IN THE US. Why would I then go on in the very next sentence to compare that to WORLDWIDE NUCLEAR DEATHS?

Then in the NEXT SENTENCE, I bring up Fukushima and Chernobyl and say basically "if you want to count them then...."

Nothing about my post was misleading.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#714

Post by jboog »

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #712
jboog wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" If this kills a business then so be it. Businesses are not entitled to" or "Yeah my policy is toxic political poison that will ensure the defeat of any politician who runs on it outside SF and Manhattan but SO WHAT?"

Your rebuttal is that change is a hard sell? Did I read that right? In that case why have politicians at all?

No my rebuttal is that if your solution is laughably extreme and unserious.

You can advocate for Soviet style collectivization and liquidating all businesses in the US if you want but no one outside of SF is ever getting elected on it in our lifetime.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#715

Post by bobthepanda »

Xylakant wrote: post #312
el_nahual wrote: post #152

An issue that many commenters here are missing is that the problem with rent control will manifest more sharply in the future. Sure, the impact today seems relatively equitable: a windfall for people that rent today coupled with a small drop in supply. But fast forward 10 or 20 years and the situation looks far worse: everyone who got a windfall today is still living in the same apartment, whereas anyone trying to en…

A counterexample is Vienna, which utilizes a well balanced system of rent-control and social housing to have incredibly low rents and still a stable supply of flats. One tweak they apply is that rent-control does not apply to new developments, so creating new flats is more lucrative than turning old buildings into luxury developments. The city also acts as a competitor, driving prices down by offering cheap flats. Th…

Vienna has experienced total population decline from 1910 to 1990 and is still well below peak population.

This strategy wouldn’t work out for a much faster growing city.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#716

Post by Red_Leaves_Flyy »

jboog wrote: post #714
Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rebuttal is that change is a hard sell? Did I read that right? In that case why have politicians at all?

No my rebuttal is that if your solution is laughably extreme and unserious. You can advocate for Soviet style collectivization and liquidating all businesses in the US if you want but no one outside of SF is ever getting elected on it in our lifetime.

Your banal misinterpretation of my ideas is more applicable to your own trite comments than my own.

If you think taxing zombie landowners and forcing a more equitable evolution in the archaic property market is too extreme wait until you hear some other ideas like:

Nationwide rent and mortgage strikes

Renters unions

Actually collectizing housing by taking property, some people aren't even ashamed to say they'd be forceful about it if their positions continue to deteriorate.

We can keep debating solutions to these problems until the worst effected take matters into their own hands, and pay more to clean up the mess, or we can behave like rational humans and make sure that everyone has the basic necessities of life as a prophylactic against mob violence from those with nothing to lost but their miserable lives.

So please, take a stand and share with us what your solutions are and how you're so confident they're better than the ones I've mentioned. Casually calling ideas extreme and unserious without honest consideration is at minimum rude and at worse a disingenuous bad faith distraction from the merits of my statement.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#717

Post by dahart »

robertlagrant wrote: post #634
dahart wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? That argument doesn’t address the fact that many cities have an absolute limit on supply in the form of space, and no amount of construction that starts today will bring prices down today. Here are some arguments to refute if you want to oppose rent control, particularly the first one (copied and pasted directly from investopedia): “Rental prices in many U.S. cities are rising far faster than wages for moderate-…

> Why? That argument doesn’t address the fact that many cities have an absolute limit on supply in the form of space, and no amount of construction that starts today will bring prices down today. You mean... scarcity? That the argument specifically mentions as the thing that price controls doesn't fix? Are you _sure_ it doesn't address it?

Running out of land space permanently is not a temporary food shortage. Are you _sure_ your argument is even relevant?

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#718

Post by robertlagrant »

dahart wrote: post #717
robertlagrant wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? That argument doesn’t address the fact that many cities have an absolute limit on supply in the form of space, and no amount of construction that starts today will bring prices down today. You mean... scarcity? That the argument specifically mentions as the thing that price controls doesn't fix? Are you _sure_ it doesn't address it?

Running out of land space permanently is not a temporary food shortage. Are you _sure_ your argument is even relevant?

It's a statement about scarcity. Saying that a statement about scarcity ignores land scarcity is bizarre.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#719

Post by robertlagrant »

AlexandrB wrote: post #301
robertlagrant wrote: post #13

> In a food shortage, for example, regulating the price of bread only trades one expression of scarcity (high prices) for another (empty shelves). This is the key statement to refute if you want to argue for rent control.

This is a silly simplification that posits that sticking the word "market" on something means that it will behave the same way and is beholden to the same forces. The bread "market" and the housing "market" are not comparable in this way. I think a lot more nuance is required for convincing case against (or for) rent control.

Saying "these markets cannot be compared" and "more nuance is required" without justifying either statement is pointless.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#720

Post by robertlagrant »

La1n wrote: post #77
robertlagrant wrote: post #13

> In a food shortage, for example, regulating the price of bread only trades one expression of scarcity (high prices) for another (empty shelves). This is the key statement to refute if you want to argue for rent control.

I think you would first need to show that bread and housing follow the same rules if you want to say that analogy applies to rent control

This is an odd statement. The claim is - I think correctly - that regulating a price to combat scarcity will never help. Why should this statement apply to bread and not housing, or vice versa?
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