Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

701–710 of 724 posts

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#701

Post by jboog »

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #683
jboog wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you propose the federal solution would be?

A federal housing guarantee. In every instance where someone cannot find affordable and sufficient housing for themselves and their family then they are entitled to the live in an unoccupied unit that meets their families needs (1 bedroom per kid and 1 for parents, at most 30 minutes by, public transit from their primary job, or car if they have a reliable vehicle and the income to maintain it) for at most 30% of the…

" If this kills a business then so be it. Businesses are not entitled to"

or

"Yeah my policy is toxic political poison that will ensure the defeat of any politician who runs on it outside SF and Manhattan but SO WHAT?"

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#702

Post by heterodoxxed »

zamfi wrote: post #697
heterodoxxed wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm of the mind that markets may be rational *given* (and here's the key) a long enough time period. However, human needs have an expiration date and often cannot wait for the market to make sense. | That assumes rational actors in local government No it doesn't, if you can build enough power you can force local governments to enact these kinds of reforms. All politicians can be pressured if you know where to push.

Yes, on the one hand you could bet on the power of a bunch of individuals the system serves well-enough (after all, they're still here!) to apply political pressure to some set of local governments (though, note that rent control is starting to be regulated at the state level) to change policy to help the less-well-off in their neighborhoods. On the other hand, you could bet on "rational activity" from landlords and…

| a bunch of individuals the system serves well-enough

Again, are you talking about SFBA? Because I thought we addressed that.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#703

Post by zamfi »

heterodoxxed wrote: post #702
zamfi wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, on the one hand you could bet on the power of a bunch of individuals the system serves well-enough (after all, they're still here!) to apply political pressure to some set of local governments (though, note that rent control is starting to be regulated at the state level) to change policy to help the less-well-off in their neighborhoods. On the other hand, you could bet on "rational activity" from landlords and…

| a bunch of individuals the system serves well-enough Again, are you talking about SFBA? Because I thought we addressed that.

Nope. Look who overwhelmingly applies pressure to local governments everywhere -- it's not the marginalized and poor! This is not an SFBA phenomenon, it's almost a natural law.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#704

Post by tptacek »

JamesBarney wrote: post #696
tptacek wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the expectation is so strong that, absent something on your driving record to prevent it, you'll get a rental no matter what you look like as long as you have a reservation (which you'll get sight unseen). That is not true of apartment renting; in fact, I'd argue, it's distinctively untrue of renting. Thus, my rebuttal to Rayiner.

This is much more true of rental companies that work at a scale close to Alamo. If you pass a background check and have a deposit you get a spot. This is less true of mom and pop rentals. This is probably less true of mom and pop anything. I think you're right that intuition based decisions make it easier for racism to creep in and are harder to diagnose and fix than process based decisions. But this problem with ren…

At first blush, it sounds crazy. I don't know how to make it workable. But in the large, tech industry hiring is super bigoted! The problem you'd be correcting is very real.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#705

Post by heterodoxxed »

zamfi wrote: post #703
heterodoxxed wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

| a bunch of individuals the system serves well-enough Again, are you talking about SFBA? Because I thought we addressed that.

Nope. Look who overwhelmingly applies pressure to local governments everywhere -- it's not the marginalized and poor! This is not an SFBA phenomenon, it's almost a natural law.

| after all, they're still here!

This is a very SFBA thing to say.

| Look who overwhelmingly applies pressure

Yeah, I'm not talking about those people.

Poor and working people have mobilized plenty of times before. That's been constant throughout modern history and only in the past few decades have we had an ahistorical low period of organizing activity. I expect that lull to end in the coming years. In many ways it already has.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#706

Post by zamfi »

heterodoxxed wrote: post #705
zamfi wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Look who overwhelmingly applies pressure to local governments everywhere -- it's not the marginalized and poor! This is not an SFBA phenomenon, it's almost a natural law.

| after all, they're still here! This is a very SFBA thing to say. | Look who overwhelmingly applies pressure Yeah, I'm not talking about those people. Poor and working people have mobilized plenty of times before. That's been constant throughout modern history and only in the past few decades have we had an ahistorical low period of organizing activity. I expect that lull to end in the coming years. In many ways it…

> This is a very SFBA thing to say.

I'm not sure how it's a very SFBA thing to point out that the people who have a voice in local politics are the people who haven't been displaced?

> Poor and working people have mobilized plenty of times before

This would require them working in their own rational self-interest too, though -- which (a) there isn't much evidence for, and (b) kinda negates your earlier argument about assuming rational actors.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#707

Post by heterodoxxed »

zamfi wrote: post #706
heterodoxxed wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

| after all, they're still here! This is a very SFBA thing to say. | Look who overwhelmingly applies pressure Yeah, I'm not talking about those people. Poor and working people have mobilized plenty of times before. That's been constant throughout modern history and only in the past few decades have we had an ahistorical low period of organizing activity. I expect that lull to end in the coming years. In many ways it…

> This is a very SFBA thing to say. I'm not sure how it's a very SFBA thing to point out that the people who have a voice in local politics are the people who haven't been displaced? > Poor and working people have mobilized plenty of times before This would require them working in their own rational self-interest too, though -- which (a) there isn't much evidence for, and (b) kinda negates your earlier argument about…

| people who haven't been displaced?

Displacement far enough that they are outside of the local political jurisdiction is specific to there. In places like Peoria, it's just further economic immiseration within Peoria. Most of America is not being gentrified, rents are just rising. There's a difference.

| (a) there isn't much evidence for

There is plenty of evidence for that. You might just have a recency bias.

| negates your earlier argument about assuming rational actors

I don't put people mobilizing into the ideological framework of "the market". I don't put much faith into the ideological framework of markets generally. I find it only slightly more useful of a tool of understanding social forces than, say, astrology.

Importantly, I'm not talking about what will happen by virtue of some outside force or guarantee of history. I'm talking about we need to make happen by force of will.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#708

Post by zamfi »

heterodoxxed wrote: post #707
zamfi wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a very SFBA thing to say. I'm not sure how it's a very SFBA thing to point out that the people who have a voice in local politics are the people who haven't been displaced? > Poor and working people have mobilized plenty of times before This would require them working in their own rational self-interest too, though -- which (a) there isn't much evidence for, and (b) kinda negates your earlier argument about…

| people who haven't been displaced? Displacement far enough that they are outside of the local political jurisdiction is specific to there. In places like Peoria, it's just further economic immiseration within Peoria. Most of America is not being gentrified, rents are just rising. There's a difference. | (a) there isn't much evidence for There is plenty of evidence for that. You might just have a recency bias. | neg…

> Most of America is not being gentrified, rents are just rising.

Peoria has a 50%+ homeownership rate. Most of the people voting locally are not facing rising rents, let alone rents at all.

> There is plenty of evidence for that. You might just have a recency bias.

> I don't put people mobilizing into the ideological framework of "the market".

Ah, I see, you don’t actually care about whether people act in their own self-interest, you just don’t like capital-E Economics and are using this as an excuse to throw out all of our understanding that people respond to incentives.

“The market” is not the only ideological framework that assumes rational actors. Do you have an alternate model of non-rational humans that you are assuming when you’re talking about making things happen by “people mobilizing”? Are they somehow not considering their own self-interest?

> Importantly, I'm not talking about what will happen by virtue of some outside force or guarantee of history

Of course. But those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#709

Post by _-___________-_ »

jboog wrote: post #700
_-___________-_ wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it’s my non-US viewpoint but I didn’t read it that way at all. The fact that you qualified the previous sentence with “in the US” made the next sentence seem intentionally broad. I also don't understand why the number of people that have died in nuclear accidents only in the US is a remotely useful metric in the context of the discussion.

Why would I start talking about coal deaths in the US, then immediately broaden it to worldwide nuclear deaths. Lie about Nuclear deaths by only counting US, then immediately after lying bring up Chernobyl and Fukushima to prove I lied or something?? You're trying to ascribe malice and dishonesty because you happen to disagree with me. I don't know why the internet does this to people

> You're trying to ascribe malice and dishonesty because you happen to disagree with me. I don't know why the internet does this to people

Sigh. I made it clear in the first comment that I don't disagree with you. I would love to see wider adoption of nuclear power. The sentence that you wrote was inaccurate, and I felt that more accurate wording would improve the quality of the debate. I don't see the point in engaging any further on this.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#710

Post by kuschku »

_2d30 wrote: post #230
kuschku wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you can define the cap so e.g. it only applies for one apartment per person, so you can't use it to get multiple ones cheap.

Oh so you mean you would want rationing too. How is that related to rent control then?

You get the first one rent controlled, if you want more you can pay the free market price.

Rationing+Rent Control is useful to provide a baseline evetyone deserves, the free market is nest for luxury products

Post reply on HN