Valve's Proton Has Enabled 7000 Windows Games on Linux • Hacker News Board

Re: Valve's Proton Has Enabled 7000 Windows Games on Linux

#71

Post by cf » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

Zhyl wrote: post #61

cf wrote: post #58

The problem with Proton is it is leading many game developers to actually drop Linux support. They basically say players seem to be able to get the game to work on Proton and that's that. But with no official support there is no guarantee it will continue to work with updates. There is no promise to even try to make it work if it breaks. And that's the major stuff. Imagine spending 20, 30, or 60 dollars on a game tha…

Could you cite some examples? I know of games that have dropped Linux support (RUST, Rocket League) but those are all to do with Anti-cheat rather than citing Proton as a feasible alternative to a native port.

Sure thing.

Supergiant has previously released all their games (Bastion, Transistor, Pyre) with Linux support. With Hades they explicitly said would not come to Linux, and in fact cite the presence of Proton as a reason [1]

Nicalis games has released games like Cave Story, VVVVVV and Binding of Isaac with Linux support. But the latest DLC of BoI will not have Linux support.

1. https://steamcommunity.com/app/1145360/discussions/0/1639794...

Re: Valve's Proton Has Enabled 7000 Windows Games on Linux

#72

Post by Zhyl » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 3:02 PM UTC

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #64

The title is disingenious. Proton is meant to be an improvement over Wine. Did none of those 7000 games work on Wine already? If I fork Proton as Neutron and add support for 1 game, no one will say "Neutron has enabled 7001 games". It enabled only 1.

>Did none of those 7000 games work on Wine already?

Not on Steam, and not without user time investment.

Steam Play (which uses Proton) allows the Steam client to only show games that are known to run well on Linux, automatically installs and configures a Wine prefix for them and then launches them _as if they were native Linux games_. No mess, no fuss. If I were to put Linux with Steam Play enabled in from of a Windows layman, they would likely not even realise they were playing games that weren't built for the platform. It 'just works'.

Re: Valve's Proton Has Enabled 7000 Windows Games on Linux

#73

Post by thrwyoilarticle » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 3:02 PM UTC

cf wrote: post #58

The problem with Proton is it is leading many game developers to actually drop Linux support. They basically say players seem to be able to get the game to work on Proton and that's that. But with no official support there is no guarantee it will continue to work with updates. There is no promise to even try to make it work if it breaks. And that's the major stuff. Imagine spending 20, 30, or 60 dollars on a game tha…

>Imagine spending 20, 30, or 60 dollars on a game that can break at any moment and know there will be zero support waiting for you.

I don't have to imagine: I play Steam games on Windows.

Re: Valve's Proton Has Enabled 7000 Windows Games on Linux

#74

Post by mewse » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

cf wrote: post #58

The problem with Proton is it is leading many game developers to actually drop Linux support. They basically say players seem to be able to get the game to work on Proton and that's that. But with no official support there is no guarantee it will continue to work with updates. There is no promise to even try to make it work if it breaks. And that's the major stuff. Imagine spending 20, 30, or 60 dollars on a game tha…

I have a game on Steam, developed primarily on Linux, and providing a Linux build (in addition to Windows and Mac).

Linux makes up approximately 0.5% of my sales. (Mac is about 2%, and Windows is the other ~97%) And from conversations with other developers, these are pretty standard percentages. I make and offer a native Linux build because I wanted to do it, but the financials really aren’t there to justify it from a hard business perspective.

Proton really isn’t the thing that makes game developers choose not to make and support Linux builds of their games; it’s the lack of an audience (and often developers not knowing enough Linux to be able to provide support for it). My hope is that Proton can build up the audience, so that it starts making more financial sense for studios to serve that audience.

Re: Valve's Proton Has Enabled 7000 Windows Games on Linux

#75

Post by Zhyl » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 3:05 PM UTC

dfgdghdf wrote: post #67

My problem with Proton is that they are not strict enough with their ratings. I see a game has "platinum" or "gold" support and think "great, this will work well!" but then I discover it crashes after alt-tab and multiplayer doesn't work at all, which I consider critical bugs. To me, the levels should be: * Paltinum - the game works as well as it does on officially supported platforms * Gold - the game works almost a…

I think it's worth differentiating between 'Proton' the compatibility layer technology and 'Proton DB' [0] the review platform and ratings agency.

All the problems listed above are purely ProtonDB issues. It would be worth reaching out to the ProtonDB admin - he's very receptive to feedback.

[0] https://protondb.com

Re: Valve's Proton Has Enabled 7000 Windows Games on Linux

#76

Post by tpmx » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 3:05 PM UTC

Zhyl wrote: post #68

branneman wrote: post #53

How is Proton a technology/library/sorftware? I got the impression it's just a preconfigured Wine, but not an actual implementation. Sorry if I'm misinformed. And _if_ that's true, I'm sad about the credits not going to the Wine team.

Proton is Wine + DXVK + d9VK + custom patches. The 'secret sauce' is actually 'Steam Play' which is the automated wrapping, configuration and execution of Proton wrapped games without the user having to do anything (other than a confirmation box to confirm that a compatibility layer is being used). The Steam Play component turns it from a 'nice meta-distribution for wine' into 'killer quality of life improvement'.

How much of this is open source? I'd expect everything, including the per-game details?

(Not asking you to do research on demand, just in case you already know...)

Re: Valve's Proton Has Enabled 7000 Windows Games on Linux

#77

Post by pityJuke » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 3:06 PM UTC

neogodless wrote: post #25

davemtl wrote: post #15

EAC (Easy Anti-Cheat) is the main reason why I've not switched from Windows to a full-time Linux desktop. While EAC does include support for Linux[1], it's up to the developer/publisher to enable it. 1. https://www.easy.ac/en-us/support/game/guides/os/ edit: Included EACs unabbreviated form as well as a link to supported operating systems.

I found this in the article: > EAC or other anti-cheat technology What does the E stand for here? OK I googled for the various other community members that don't know this particular acronym: https://www.easy.ac/en-us/ Still never heard of it beyond this reference, but I assume it's a part of some popular games? (Scroll down on page above to see.) They list Fortnite but I thought that used something with a different…

Fortnite in particular does use both Battleye and EAC.

Re: Valve's Proton Has Enabled 7000 Windows Games on Linux

#78

Post by cf » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 3:06 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #65

cf wrote: post #58

The problem with Proton is it is leading many game developers to actually drop Linux support. They basically say players seem to be able to get the game to work on Proton and that's that. But with no official support there is no guarantee it will continue to work with updates. There is no promise to even try to make it work if it breaks. And that's the major stuff. Imagine spending 20, 30, or 60 dollars on a game tha…

Market share is king. With Linux at 1% Linux gamers are screwed, Proton or not.

This has always been true, but Linux gets treated worse than OS X even though those users also have tiny market share.

Re: Valve's Proton Has Enabled 7000 Windows Games on Linux

#79

Post by Zhyl » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 3:06 PM UTC

tempest_ wrote: post #42

SteveNuts wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think SteamOS was mostly a political play, at the time microsoft looked like it was turning windows into a walled garden platform.

I think that was a large reason. Additionally the OUYA had some mind share and Valve was pushing Steam Machines and their Steam link so a non windows OS to run on them made sense. On reflection perhaps the Steam Machines and link were a response to the Windows Store as well but I cant remember the timelines that well.

It was mostly in response to the Windows 8 store.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18996377

Re: Valve's Proton Has Enabled 7000 Windows Games on Linux

#80

Post by jsiepkes » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 3:06 PM UTC

dfgdghdf wrote: post #67

My problem with Proton is that they are not strict enough with their ratings. I see a game has "platinum" or "gold" support and think "great, this will work well!" but then I discover it crashes after alt-tab and multiplayer doesn't work at all, which I consider critical bugs. To me, the levels should be: * Paltinum - the game works as well as it does on officially supported platforms * Gold - the game works almost a…

To be fair those grades come from ProtonDB[1] which is not affiliated with Valve or Proton. Though I agree that having a clear rating system as to what to expect in Steam would be great.

[1] https://www.protondb.com