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Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

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Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#671

Post by tptacek »

xyzzyz wrote: post #669
tptacek wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here I think that if Alamo started turning down drivers with reservations at the rental counter on sight, and those drivers were even slightly disproportionately Black, Alamo would be in a world of hurt.

If they had no reason to turn down drivers other than their race, sure, but that's because it's illegal (on top of being morally repugnant). They can turn down drivers for other reasons just fine, though, even if they are disproportionately black. For example, I'm told that voter ID laws are wrong, because black people are less likely to have ID (presumably driver's license). Alamo is perfectly able to turn down driv…

My point is that the expectation is so strong that, absent something on your driving record to prevent it, you'll get a rental no matter what you look like as long as you have a reservation (which you'll get sight unseen).

That is not true of apartment renting; in fact, I'd argue, it's distinctively untrue of renting. Thus, my rebuttal to Rayiner.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#672

Post by llampx »

skohan wrote: post #628
porb121 wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

being enabled to continue doing something (at the cost of others!) just because you want to keep doing it is not a particularly legitimate reason also, if people move to Berlin, they also become the people of Berlin.

> being enabled to continue doing something (at the cost of others!) just because you want to keep doing it is not a particularly legitimate reason We are not talking about getting tickets to an NBA playoff game, we are talking about housing. If someone has been living in a city for their entire life, it's not reasonable to expect that due to "market forces" they should have to pick up their entire life and move to a…

Every other aspect of living is also subject to inflation. The berlin government is a hero for the poor, this is all it is. The Mietendeckel is not a good thing for a young person or a family but rather for old people and those who have been living in the city for a long time. It creates a class of haves.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#673

Post by llampx »

statstutor wrote: post #616
porb121 wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should they be forced to find a new flat way outside the city because the rent triples over the course of a few years so young tech workers relocating from London can have a place in the cool part of town? yes why should they get to stay in berlin and have their housing subsidized?

Competing for housing exclusively on grounds of wealth also doesn't benefit young workers?

Aside from on HN, most wealth is owned by the old, not the young.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#674

Post by llampx »

mjevans wrote: post #490
throwaway6734 wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

build more housing

Also minimize middle-persons and standardize the sales and transfer and ownership contacts (preferably at a state or higher level). The goal should be to make it easier and more orderly to transfer property ownership, while also providing protection to those making the sales. The standard contacts should also include enumerations of inspection agencies and what type of inspections were performed (and when), and the v…

The German government has absolutely no interest in lowering the taxes they collect from property sales.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#675

Post by llampx »

sudosysgen wrote: post #66
awillen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're driving out renters, who are typically less affluent, in favor of the wealthy. Whether or not you call that success or failure depends on what you're trying to achieve, but usually these sorts of actions are trying to create housing affordability. Taking most of the supply off the market for new renters (by selling to people who can afford to buy and by incentivizing those who were already renting to stay f…

This is not how it works. Without the possibility to rent out or consolidate homeownership, the inflationary pressure on home prices collapses. You create an insane level amount of supply for homeownership on this market. An absolutely insane level. Indeed, the vast majority of increase in housing prices is because rents are so high that 7% YoY returns are possible. Without these returns, then there is no way to just…

The inflationary pressure on Berlin housing prices has definitely not collapsed at any time in the last 10 years.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#676

Post by _-___________-_ »

jboog wrote: post #620
_-___________-_ wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am generally in support of nuclear technology but statements like "Less than 20 people have died in Nuclear related accidents in the history of this technologies use" don't help the cause. That's just flat-out false, and you indicate in the following paragraph that you know that. Leaving out the two most significant accidents in the history of the technology shouldn't be the default...

I was clearly talking about in the US. Literally the previous sentence I was talking about the danger in the US of fossil fuels, then I wrote about the danger of nuclear and then move on to worldwide. Nothing I wrote was false at all. It's almost like you're intentionally trying to misread my argument to paint me as disingenuous.

Maybe it’s my non-US viewpoint but I didn’t read it that way at all. The fact that you qualified the previous sentence with “in the US” made the next sentence seem intentionally broad.

I also don't understand why the number of people that have died in nuclear accidents only in the US is a remotely useful metric in the context of the discussion.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#677

Post by justnotworthit »

JPKab wrote: post #322
el_nahual wrote: post #152

An issue that many commenters here are missing is that the problem with rent control will manifest more sharply in the future. Sure, the impact today seems relatively equitable: a windfall for people that rent today coupled with a small drop in supply. But fast forward 10 or 20 years and the situation looks far worse: everyone who got a windfall today is still living in the same apartment, whereas anyone trying to en…

There is plenty of scientific denialism on the right. Along with anti nuclear, the belief that rent control is a remotely good idea is an example of scientific denialism on the left. There are some decent arguments to be made against nuclear but rent control has always always caused more harm than good everywhere it's been tried.

Any biology forum that was 50/50 anti-evolution; or a physics forum that often argued newton is good enough and the rest we can control; etc etc, would be some kind of fringe, excluded place.

Deny supply and demand? Always popular. We're 100 years past the marginal revolution, yet, both the practictioners of the discipline and outsiders (marxist sociologists) think this can be controlled.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#678

Post by carlmr »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #574
Xylakant wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A counterexample is Vienna, which utilizes a well balanced system of rent-control and social housing to have incredibly low rents and still a stable supply of flats. One tweak they apply is that rent-control does not apply to new developments, so creating new flats is more lucrative than turning old buildings into luxury developments. The city also acts as a competitor, driving prices down by offering cheap flats. Th…

>A counterexample is Vienna, which utilizes a well balanced system of rent-control and social housing to have incredibly low rents I beg your pardon? You can't possibly call rent prices in Vienna incredibly low and still keep a straight face. Maybe for the lucky Viennese that got grandfathered in some rent controlled flats, but last time I looked (pre-covid), rents there for new comers were insane compared to the nex…

Sorry, but judging from neighboring Germany the rents in Vienna ARE incredibly low.

The measure I would apply is whether middle class people can live in the city, and that's definitely the case, in contrast to e.g. Munich.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#679

Post by perl4ever »

tptacek wrote: post #656
rayiner wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Seattle entirely removed the ability of landlords to pick their tenants? Imagine applying that to anything else—must hire the first qualified job applicant, etc.

I don't know, this kind of makes sense. You've presumably rented apartments before. The process is shady as shit. I've been shaken down by several landlords for prepayments, and intrusively interviewed. It must be much worse for Black renters. And it's how most purchasing works! I go to rent a car, they have to rent me the car if it's available; they can't wait to see if a safer-looking driver is right behind me. Ren…

I talked to someone about renting once, I thought we'd agreed to go ahead, the next day they called and said, essentially, they'd decided to rent to someone they preferred better who expressed interest after me. Casually, as though it wasn't a slap in the face.

I concluded that I'm probably stuck renting from an impersonal corporate landlord that runs apartment complexes, but that seems more expensive.

At least in the US, I think people that are renting out part of the building they live in have, legally, a higher degree of latitude in terms of discrimination. It is kind of like a job interview. Or considering someone as a roommate.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#680

Post by perl4ever »

pen2l wrote: post #665
tptacek wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, this kind of makes sense. You've presumably rented apartments before. The process is shady as shit. I've been shaken down by several landlords for prepayments, and intrusively interviewed. It must be much worse for Black renters. And it's how most purchasing works! I go to rent a car, they have to rent me the car if it's available; they can't wait to see if a safer-looking driver is right behind me. Ren…

I'm not decided on the topic being talked about, but just want to say that my parents in Milwaukee renting out a condominium have gotten burned from a string of 4 tenants. Flat out didn't make payments, didn't respect the rules (i.e. rules of condominium association, which puts the owner in trouble), intentionally ruined the place on last day out, literally, with a sledgehammer, and basically ended up costing money.…

>maybe the regulations should selectively be applied to those who rent out multiple properties

I think they do.

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