Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets • Hacker News Board

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#661

Post by WalterBright » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

Ekaros wrote: post #562

WalterBright wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If rent increases are capped at 7% per year, landlords will have an incentive to increase it at the max, because that gives them more flexibility the next year. For example, let's say the free market would raise rents 5% this year, and 8% next year. A cap of 7% means the rent will rise 7% this year, as the landlord won't want to have caps permanently reduce future rents.

And if landlord increases the rate too much renters will find cheaper place to live. In long run system balances itself.

Caps add risk to the landlords, and risk always increases prices. It'll balance, sure, but at a higher price.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#662

Post by xyzzyz » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #656

rayiner wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Seattle entirely removed the ability of landlords to pick their tenants? Imagine applying that to anything else—must hire the first qualified job applicant, etc.

I don't know, this kind of makes sense. You've presumably rented apartments before. The process is shady as shit. I've been shaken down by several landlords for prepayments, and intrusively interviewed. It must be much worse for Black renters. And it's how most purchasing works! I go to rent a car, they have to rent me the car if it's available; they can't wait to see if a safer-looking driver is right behind me. Ren…

> I go to rent a car, they have to rent me the car if it's available

I don’t think they have to rent you anything if they don’t feel like it. They can wait for safer looking driver just fine. It’s just they don’t, because it doesn’t make sense for them from business perspective, but they very much could do that.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#663

Post by TedShiller » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

iamthemalto wrote: post #553

TedShiller wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, rents in Vienna are not "incredibly low". From someone who has rented there.

I think if you compare rents to a place like Munich, then Vienna is indeed quite low

Sure, it's not Munich, but given how insane Munich is that doesn't mean much. That's like saying it's not San Francisco.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#664

Post by mandelbrotwurst » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

_-___________-_ wrote: post #548

mandelbrotwurst wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t true if the government generates more via subsidies.

That will just push down the market rate so that it's not below market rate any more, won't it?

I don’t think so, why would that happen?

I would expect it to actually increase the market rate because setting aside some amount of the supply at below market rate / subsidized means that there is a smaller remaining supply than if they hadn’t done that.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#665

Post by pen2l » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 9:32 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #656

rayiner wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Seattle entirely removed the ability of landlords to pick their tenants? Imagine applying that to anything else—must hire the first qualified job applicant, etc.

I don't know, this kind of makes sense. You've presumably rented apartments before. The process is shady as shit. I've been shaken down by several landlords for prepayments, and intrusively interviewed. It must be much worse for Black renters. And it's how most purchasing works! I go to rent a car, they have to rent me the car if it's available; they can't wait to see if a safer-looking driver is right behind me. Ren…

I'm not decided on the topic being talked about, but just want to say that my parents in Milwaukee renting out a condominium have gotten burned from a string of 4 tenants. Flat out didn't make payments, didn't respect the rules (i.e. rules of condominium association, which puts the owner in trouble), intentionally ruined the place on last day out, literally, with a sledgehammer, and basically ended up costing money. And my parents are by no means rich... the $800/month for a 3-bedbroom place was their primary means of income.

They're finally having better luck now that this time that they requested credit reports, actually exhaustively followed through on references, etc.

Don't know what the answer is -- maybe the regulations should selectively be applied to those who rent out multiple properties?

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#666

Post by tptacek » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

pen2l wrote: post #665

tptacek wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, this kind of makes sense. You've presumably rented apartments before. The process is shady as shit. I've been shaken down by several landlords for prepayments, and intrusively interviewed. It must be much worse for Black renters. And it's how most purchasing works! I go to rent a car, they have to rent me the car if it's available; they can't wait to see if a safer-looking driver is right behind me. Ren…

I'm not decided on the topic being talked about, but just want to say that my parents in Milwaukee renting out a condominium have gotten burned from a string of 4 tenants. Flat out didn't make payments, didn't respect the rules (i.e. rules of condominium association, which puts the owner in trouble), intentionally ruined the place on last day out, literally, with a sledgehammer, and basically ended up costing money.…

I don't think landlords screen tenants out of malice, and I know a bunch of landlords who have related their challenges to me. But environments like this are to unlawful bias what standing water is to mosquitos. It sort of can't help but creep in, and without some objective standard, there's no way to keep it from turning into a plague.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#667

Post by tptacek » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #662

tptacek wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, this kind of makes sense. You've presumably rented apartments before. The process is shady as shit. I've been shaken down by several landlords for prepayments, and intrusively interviewed. It must be much worse for Black renters. And it's how most purchasing works! I go to rent a car, they have to rent me the car if it's available; they can't wait to see if a safer-looking driver is right behind me. Ren…

> I go to rent a car, they have to rent me the car if it's available I don’t think they have to rent you anything if they don’t feel like it. They can wait for safer looking driver just fine. It’s just they don’t, because it doesn’t make sense for them from business perspective, but they very much could do that.

And here I think that if Alamo started turning down drivers with reservations at the rental counter on sight, and those drivers were even slightly disproportionately Black, Alamo would be in a world of hurt.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#668

Post by readams » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

mandelbrotwurst wrote: post #664

_-___________-_ wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will just push down the market rate so that it's not below market rate any more, won't it?

I don’t think so, why would that happen? I would expect it to actually increase the market rate because setting aside some amount of the supply at below market rate / subsidized means that there is a smaller remaining supply than if they hadn’t done that.

Market rate is the price where supply and demand are equal. If you set price below market rate, the demand will be higher than the supply. So if you create enough below market rate housing that there is no longer a shortage, then it must mean that the supply and demand are equal at that price, which means that it is no longer below market rate.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#669

Post by xyzzyz » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #667

xyzzyz wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I go to rent a car, they have to rent me the car if it's available I don’t think they have to rent you anything if they don’t feel like it. They can wait for safer looking driver just fine. It’s just they don’t, because it doesn’t make sense for them from business perspective, but they very much could do that.

And here I think that if Alamo started turning down drivers with reservations at the rental counter on sight, and those drivers were even slightly disproportionately Black, Alamo would be in a world of hurt.

If they had no reason to turn down drivers other than their race, sure, but that's because it's illegal (on top of being morally repugnant). They can turn down drivers for other reasons just fine, though, even if they are disproportionately black. For example, I'm told that voter ID laws are wrong, because black people are less likely to have ID (presumably driver's license). Alamo is perfectly able to turn down drivers without driver licenses, even if they are disproportionately black.

Re: Rent controls have split housing in Berlin into two distinct markets

#670

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #656

rayiner wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Seattle entirely removed the ability of landlords to pick their tenants? Imagine applying that to anything else—must hire the first qualified job applicant, etc.

I don't know, this kind of makes sense. You've presumably rented apartments before. The process is shady as shit. I've been shaken down by several landlords for prepayments, and intrusively interviewed. It must be much worse for Black renters. And it's how most purchasing works! I go to rent a car, they have to rent me the car if it's available; they can't wait to see if a safer-looking driver is right behind me. Ren…

[deleted]