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Killing TurboTax

kunle.app

551–560 of 692 posts

Re: Killing TurboTax

#551
Taxes are a complex topic, and I believe that "TurboTax sucks" or even "the US tax code is too complex" are insufficiently insightful.

WHY TAXES IN THE US ARE COMPLEX

The US governing mindset accepts that people follow financial incentives and disincentives (capitalism.) Thus the government can encourage or reduce certain activities via tax code treatment.

Some examples of activities that the government encourages via the tax code are: marriage, having children, taking care of aged relatives, donating to charity, driving a low emission vehicle, home ownership, getting an education, and investing for the long term. And these are just the simple ones that most people encounter, there are many others.

Further complexities stem from attempts to make the code fair. For example, if your work requires you to spend money on things like uniforms and certifications, the code has provisions to exclude that from taxable income. Likewise, you don't get double-taxed on foreign income you had already paid taxed on abroad.

Finally, the US is a diverse country with diverse values. Each state and municipality has a different philosophy on taxation and what the tax code encourages and discourages. People to some extent migrate towards tax regimes that align with their values, but of course this is another source of complexity.

The bottom line is that the US tax code is complex because it tries to do more and has to account for more variability than perhaps other tax codes out there.

ARE TAXES HARD?

The answer is: it depends. For the simple person who draws a salary and that's all, they can fill out their taxes in a few minutes, for free online - or even by hand in a form with no problem. I did this when I was a college student and early in my career. I often hear foreigners brag how their tax form is 3 lines - that's great. For many in the US, it's not much more than that. But, as you get into more advanced scenarios and want to take advantage of government incentives (or the government wants to make sure you pay your fair share in some otherwise tricky cases) you have to put in more work.

DOES TURBO TAX SUCK?

It's easy to find faults with most software, but the bottom line at least in my experience is it has scaled very well as my tax situation grew in complexity in different ways. The fact that one can rely heavily on this program for a workflow that has implications of tens of thousands of dollars every year is pretty meaningful.

CAN IT BE REPLACED?

Good luck. For very simple cases I mentioned above, sure - and there are already lots of cheap and easy ways to file in those cases, including trivially on paper. But once people have complex situations and many factors intersecting, your software needs to account for all of those factors well. That takes tremendous work year after year - to understand, encode, and test all of these things. In my opinion that's exactly the kind of project that benefits from commercial investment and wouldn't do well as open source.

Re: Killing TurboTax

#553
post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single party rule would be true only if the Senate was not encumbered by the filibuster.

I sometimes feel surreal that US Congress people get paid to professionally kill time.

While true it's not too often that filibusterers actually happen. The threat of doing it is usually enough to kill a vote.

Re: Killing TurboTax

#554
post #454

This is such an ongoing theme on HN that we could maybe use a bibiliography. If I missed any big ones let me know. In reverse chronological order: Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26138446 - Feb 2021 (219 comments) TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102695 - Feb 2021 (306 comments) TurboTax’s 20…

This is fantastic. Thank you dang.

Re: Killing TurboTax

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, a vastly simplified tax code is needed. Here's my dream for a simpler tax code: The only tax is a Sales tax/VAT/GST. Pros: - Individuals never have to think about tax. It would completely eliminate tax returns. That alone is worth it's weight in gold since tax returns are such a time and money burden. - It would close all the loopholes megacorps/wealthy individuals use to pay less tax. You cannot avoid spend…

A wealth tax. All assets and cash need to be properly valued and then that value taxed. I agree with the sibling comment and also with past discussions where a wealth tax is the only non-regressive (not-keep the poor down) tax code.

I'm not sure that would work as simply as that. Imagine buying a volatile stock, say, TSLA at $100. This then skyrockets to $1000. You're now taxed on your wealth at that price point. Then it immediately crashes down to $120. All this while, you're just holding the stock but paid taxes on a non existent value.

Re: Killing TurboTax

#556

"Killing TurboTax" is essentially a meme until we meaningfully simplify the tax code. There is no software development team on earth who could catch up with the full capabilities of TurboTax without some sort of fundamental shift in the business. I really hate to say this as someone who makes a living out of it, but dealing with the current amount of complexity in the tax code with a piece of software that a non-expe…

I agree, a vastly simplified tax code is needed. Here's my dream for a simpler tax code: The only tax is a Sales tax/VAT/GST. Pros: - Individuals never have to think about tax. It would completely eliminate tax returns. That alone is worth it's weight in gold since tax returns are such a time and money burden. - It would close all the loopholes megacorps/wealthy individuals use to pay less tax. You cannot avoid spend…

> Won't this disproportionately tax the poor? - Firstly, the existing tax code already does.

I used to think this because it's often said, but learned it's not true. This sums it up:

The top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent).

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent).

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-inco...

Re: Killing TurboTax

#557
I used to work on a tax product.

I 100% agree with the premise: to unseat TT, you need a auto-assembler of tax, like other countries have. I’m not sure why the author didn’t delve into it, but essentially if you have payroll integrated, you can enable this for a LOT of Americans. They work 1 job and take standard deduction. Don’t go after the complex 1% tax filers, do 1 job and do it well.

Imagine you get an email. “Hey it’s tax time. Looks like you’re due a refund of $1000. Click here to confirm and file.” That would be really powerful. For many Americans the tax refund is the biggest paycheck of the year. Anything that makes that easier is going to do well.

Re: Killing TurboTax

#558
post #309

"Killing TurboTax" is essentially a meme until we meaningfully simplify the tax code. There is no software development team on earth who could catch up with the full capabilities of TurboTax without some sort of fundamental shift in the business. I really hate to say this as someone who makes a living out of it, but dealing with the current amount of complexity in the tax code with a piece of software that a non-expe…

The IRS themselves need to provide this "auto tax" service.

I grew up in France, our bureaucracy is pretty intense and old school. But they send you a nice little note with your W2 and how much you own them. If they missed anything you can amend their draft. Usually it take 15min to complete the whole yearly process. Even with some midly complicated situation like renting and being landlord, living between two countries, cryptos.

Re: Killing TurboTax

#559

"Killing TurboTax" is essentially a meme until we meaningfully simplify the tax code. There is no software development team on earth who could catch up with the full capabilities of TurboTax without some sort of fundamental shift in the business. I really hate to say this as someone who makes a living out of it, but dealing with the current amount of complexity in the tax code with a piece of software that a non-expe…

I agree, a vastly simplified tax code is needed. Here's my dream for a simpler tax code: The only tax is a Sales tax/VAT/GST. Pros: - Individuals never have to think about tax. It would completely eliminate tax returns. That alone is worth it's weight in gold since tax returns are such a time and money burden. - It would close all the loopholes megacorps/wealthy individuals use to pay less tax. You cannot avoid spend…

It also creates a problem where you have countries who are close together people crossing the border to shop where taxes are cheaper and then the country where they live not getting those tax dollars (example Canada USA)

Re: Killing TurboTax

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tax prep industry lobbied Congress to prevent the IRS from auto-tax filing. The compromise was "free filing" for those with median incomes and below. For a majority, W2s, 1099s and the previous years return can provide an auto-filing framework. The IRS would send your their draft and you agree or modify. Other countries do this.

If I saw a proposal to make tax codes simpler, have people file taxes with a good app provided by the IRS etc and then I saw a politician vote against it, while being funded by companies benefiting from the status quo... I'd just not vote for that person again.

While many people are "single issue voters" [1] it's not too often that someone would vote for an otherwise worse candidate over $50-100/yr tax prep bill.

[1] I hate this term but it's the one that caught on. Almost no one votes positively based on a single issue but many people have disqualifying issues which people treat as the same thing. "Sure they're pro baby eating but their stance on taxes is really quite progressive."

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