Meat consumption and risk of 25 conditions: outcome-wide analyses of 475K people • Hacker News Board

Re: Meat consumption and risk of 25 conditions: outcome-wide analyses of 475K people

#241

Post by giantg2 » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

onebot wrote: post #124

giantg2 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The advantage of a plant based diet is that it's a lot kinder to the earth and to our animal cousins while also helping you avoid obesity." Does it actually help avoid obesity? Many of the vegetarians I know are overweight or even obese.

I mean everyone has some anecdotal opinion. But there is cite-able research. To bring this full circle back to HN community, I wouldn't go start a company on my opinion alone, I would do customer development, user research, etc. to make sure my assumptions are valid. https://jandonline.org/article/S2212-2672(13)01113-1/abstrac...

Interesting.

Did it say how they measured BMI? Was it the lazy height/weight way or the real way? I can't see the full study due to a pay wall and it doesn't say in the abstract. I would also be interested to see if they had any selection criteria based on lifestyle (exercise and healthy food selections) and family history since it only mentions adjustments for age, sex, and race.

Also, I would like to see the BMI by subgroup. Based on their breakdown they are comparing omnivores to vegans but leave out the vegetarian and pesectarian results.

Here's one that compares a healthy Mediterranean diet with a healthy vegetarian one. The conclusion was that they are comparable.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29483085/

Re: Meat consumption and risk of 25 conditions: outcome-wide analyses of 475K people

#242

Post by thaumasiotes » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

galangalalgol wrote: post #234

thaumasiotes wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a risk, but it's still true that the Indian vegetarian diet will cover all major dietary needs. And while that's not the most ringing endorsement, it's more than you can say for cutting meat out of a diet that features a lot of meat.

How much dairy protein is in such a diet? A lot of the curries I enjoy have yogurt and I love the cheese and cream in palak and saag paneer. But those may not be normal dishes?

I don't know, though my first guess would have been that the major source of protein would be lentils or other pulses. Yogurt is certainly plausible as well.

Re: Meat consumption and risk of 25 conditions: outcome-wide analyses of 475K people

#243

Post by nate_meurer » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #241

onebot wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean everyone has some anecdotal opinion. But there is cite-able research. To bring this full circle back to HN community, I wouldn't go start a company on my opinion alone, I would do customer development, user research, etc. to make sure my assumptions are valid. https://jandonline.org/article/S2212-2672(13)01113-1/abstrac...

Interesting. Did it say how they measured BMI? Was it the lazy height/weight way or the real way? I can't see the full study due to a pay wall and it doesn't say in the abstract. I would also be interested to see if they had any selection criteria based on lifestyle (exercise and healthy food selections) and family history since it only mentions adjustments for age, sex, and race. Also, I would like to see the BMI by…

You can read the whole thing on sci-hub, e.g., https://sci-hub.st/10.1016/j.jand.2013.06.349.

Re: Meat consumption and risk of 25 conditions: outcome-wide analyses of 475K people

#244

Post by 542354234235 » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

onebot wrote: post #110

dagorenouf wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just replying to your last point: sugar and carbohydrates make you fat more than anything else. To fix that, most successful diets rely on increasing the ratio of protein you eat (wether it's fish, meat or poultry). It gets you to the same satiety but eating less carbs, and you lose weight. Now enter plant based / animal free diets, how are people gonna get to satiety without all that dense meat / fish / chicken? If…

Eating more calories than you burn make you overweight. Not the type of calorie. This has been proven (wish I could find the research paper) and was funded by Gary Taubes' research group. Refined sugar and carbs are high in calories and low in nutrients. If you eat 2000 (or appropriate for you expenditure) calories of brocoli, you ain't getting overweight. Additionally, most people are addicted to sugar and refined c…

>Eating more calories than you burn make you overweight. Not the type of calorie. This has been proven (wish I could find the research paper) and was funded by Gary Taubes' research group.

This article [1] is a good writeup of the study (with the original study linked) and does a very good job at contextualizing the results and limitations, alternative viewpoints, and criticisms. My takeaway is, while a very interesting pilot study, the small sample size, lack of a control group, lack of an alternative group that ate the two diets in opposite order, possible confounding factors including exercise while outside the metabolic chamber, etc. don’t make this study any kind of smoking gun.

[1] https://www.medpagetoday.com/primarycare/dietnutrition/59012

Re: Meat consumption and risk of 25 conditions: outcome-wide analyses of 475K people

#245

Post by ddorian43 » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

ChrisRR wrote: post #230

ddorian43 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is doing it by force. Paying ads, paying politicians, paying experts, paying democratic party, insisting on vaccines, insisting on removing meat (have you seen healthy athletic vegans ? extremely rare). You have to look at things that he wants to be applied by force, not things that he "generously creates and you can optionally use it". If I want to eat meat and Bill wants to raise taxes on meat by force (using hi…

No-one is forcing you to stop eating meat, and yes in fact I have a powerlifter vegan friend. You're clearly brimming with emotion, and you seem to have drawn your own conclusion that bill gates is forcing you to stop eating meat. I'll be honest, that's a new conspiracy theory that I've not heard. Why don't you think about it logically. What would Bill gates, a man who statistically only has 13 more years to live, ga…

> No-one is forcing you to stop eating meat

You will slowly see the influence. Bill Gates is going in that direction. It is just too much man, he is going too strong at it, motherfucker appearing in every news about the virus.

> You're clearly brimming with emotion, and you seem to have drawn your own conclusion that bill gates is forcing you to stop eating meat.

It's "let's hear what Ja Rule has to say about this" up to level 9000!

> and yes in fact I have a powerlifter vegan friend.

Yes I have a black friend.

> Why don't you think about it logically. What would Bill gates, a man who statistically only has 13 more years to live, gain from stopping you from eating meat?

The issue is that people think differently. A simple exercise to you: Go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorde... and read a little about it. Now, think logically, thinking & behaving like that doesn't make sense. Yet, there is a % of the population that does.

Give somebody with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disor... billions of $, at the end of their life, and they are at your throat.

He is the Microsoft scenario, he isn't good. He just profits, his ego, he gets excited doing this, his NPD, whatever, but he isn't good. He can't be. Can't save the world by force a be a good guy at the same time even if it was true.

Re: Meat consumption and risk of 25 conditions: outcome-wide analyses of 475K people

#246

Post by nate_meurer » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #181

dashundchen wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Coincidentally, industrial food producers have discovered that it is cheaper and more profitable to sell ground up peas and plant oil as “meat”, water rinsed through oats as milk, etc. > The “solutions” of fake substitutes are PR driven narratives. I think you are looking for a conspiracy where there is none. Those newer alternative meat products are not the basis of a healthy plant-based diet - they are treats tha…

There is no conspiracy. It's a standard industry transform/consolidate play. From a public health perspective, a $1 McDonald's burger made of coconuts/pea/soy/salt is just as bad as the incumbent beef-based product. The capital behind meat alternatives does not give a hoot about animal welfare or anything beyond money... meat alternatives are the new Coke. It is much cheaper to operate a couple of large national-scal…

> It is much cheaper to operate a couple of large national-scale factories to produce plant-based meat alternatives...

This whole paragraph is exactly right, and exactly why factory meat is set to rapidly lose market share to plant-based substitutes. The market forces are unstoppable.

I'll add that the lesson of COVID's meat processing labor disruptions will not be lost on retailers and retaurant chains.

Re: Meat consumption and risk of 25 conditions: outcome-wide analyses of 475K people

#247

Post by nate_meurer » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

dashundchen wrote: post #145

GongOfFour wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to have the time to dig into those numbers, but for now I'm going to take the sources "Plant Based News" and "The Sentience Institute" with a big grain of salt.

The numbers are there. If you're looking for a digested summary from the USDA itself, here is an old 2002 analysis of the 1997 farm census. With industrial farm consolidation continuing since then I can't imagine it's improved. Key point here is the value of sales. "Of the 1,315,051 farms with livestock, 18 percent (237,821 farms) were farms with confined livestock types (i.e., farms with 4 or more animal units of an…

Nice example of a pareto distribution. Eighty percent of our meat comes from the roughly twenty percent of factory farms that confine their livestock in tiny cages.

Re: Meat consumption and risk of 25 conditions: outcome-wide analyses of 475K people

#248

Post by user-the-name » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 9:32 PM UTC

ddorian43 wrote: post #169

user-the-name wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conspiracy theorists have a real thing about Bill Gates.

You can't deny that Bill has completely lost it trying to become public batman by force and shove whatever the fuck he wants into our throats by using his money "for our good".

Like I said: Conspiracy theorists have a real thing about Bill Gates.

Re: Meat consumption and risk of 25 conditions: outcome-wide analyses of 475K people

#249

Post by vlod » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 9:33 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #123

thrwyoilarticle wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a similar way, if you reduce your meat consumption by 80%, you're 80% of the way to the environmental benefits of a wholly vegan diet. Isn't it easier to convince someone to reduce their meat intake than to eliminate it completely?

Probably not. My favorite trivia here is a study which documented that, of people who self-describe as "vegetarian", one third will admit to having eaten meat in the past one (1) week.

That's a broad stroke you're painting!

Maybe a lot of people want to try and be a 'vegetarian' (I dunno to sound cool?), try it for 3 months and fail constantly. These aren't vegetarians, just pretentious.

I've been a 'veggie' for 25 years and I haven't eaten meat, nor anyone else who I know who are.

Re: Meat consumption and risk of 25 conditions: outcome-wide analyses of 475K people

#250

Post by vlod » Wed, Mar 03, 2021, 9:39 PM UTC

nvilcins wrote: post #144

bena wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bit about a vegetarian diet being associated with a higher incidence of cancer is kind of jarring to me. As I've always heard that leaning more towards whole/raw foods and more vegetables were better for avoiding cancer. Now that may be because of your top point, most of the meat consumed in the US is processed in some way. I think the biggest culprit of meat-related cancer (?) is preserved meats. I don't know. I…

Most of the vegetarians/vegans I know have a pretty shitty diet - lots of highly processed grains (bread, pasta, and other fillers), sweets, desserts, sugary drinks (and other "regular" products with added sugars), and otherwise not too diverse of a diet. Don't know if that's a representative sample of vegetarian/vegan population, but it's not unlikely the case. Hence, the link between the veg* diet and cancer is not…

I think it's worth understanding why someone is a 'veggie'.

For me it was for standard 'moral' reasons and so eating junk food is still acceptable.

Eventually I picked up the health reasons angle (and discarded all the junk food) and moving to mostly a plant based diet (mostly vegan).