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Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

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Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#881
post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see any problem with eating meat, given that I'm an animal and some animals eat other animals' meat. Some animals rape other animals in packs, have territorial wars resulting in killing for nonfood reasons, and torture and/or kill other creatures for sport. Some animals eat their young if possible. Juvenile females are impregnated and give birth as soon as it is biologically possible. Some animals keep slav…

My point is that pigs would eat me if they could, so there is no mercy to reciprocate by refusing to eat them myself. By contrast, not every human would rape or murder me, in fact very few humans would do, depending on circumstance; so there is good reason not to do those things myself. More to the point, there is no good reason to do those things. This is not to justify anything; it is to point out that there is no…

I think your comments are earnest and I wonder if in person I’d be able to maybe change your mind.

My argument would be that we shouldn’t determine mercy based on what something else would do to us, but on what we can do in pursuit of a worthy goal. Basically what the “right” thing is independent of how we’d be treated in a similar circumstance.

In this case the goal would be reducing suffering of other living things.

If we had to eat meat to live then I’d understand the tradeoff, but we don’t so it seems wrong.

> “ And I, in turn, have seen no justification for not eating meat better than "you shouldn't eat meat".”

The justification I’m trying to make is that reducing suffering of living things is a worthwhile goal and something we can do by not eating meat.

> “ it is to point out that there is no reason not to eat other animals and there are very good reasons to eat them”

I’d argue this isn’t true for the reasons above.

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#882

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this kind of reasoning often, but I don't believe anyone is willing to apply it outside of food. Yes, many non-human animals would eat you if given the opportunity. Some species of large cats might also kill you for amusement. Does that fact justify you doing the same? Many animals might try to copulate with you. Does that justify bestiality? And if you're comfortable with moral arguments based on reciprocity,…

>> Yes, many non-human animals would eat you if given the opportunity. Some species of large cats might also kill you for amusement. Does that fact justify you doing the same? Many animals might try to copulate with you. Does that justify bestiality? What's missing is a good reason to kill or copulate. There are good reasons to kill an animal in order to eat it, in fact that's the reason, to eat it. There are no good…

This issue with this reasoning is it’s after the fact and not on the merits itself.

If someone were to think killing animals for amusement is good or moral (even though you don’t) and they pointed to animals that do it as justification, that wouldn’t sit well with you.

That’s the bit we’re trying to get at. It’s more that you’ve already decided something (in this case eating meat is morally fine or a good reason to kill animals) and you’re fitting the environment to your case afterwards.

This doesn’t work because in places where you think something is immoral (killing animals for amusement) the same justification fails.

You’ve already made up your mind, the justification feels like a flawed rationalization.

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#883

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not care about the emotional state of the animal? I don't need to. What benefit does it have for me, or for anyone, to sit around crying about the poor cow that became my prime rib dinner? It's utterly pointless. The cows will still be dying tomorrow, and my children will still be hungry like every other day. I am not advocating for _more suffering_, man. Humane killing where possible. Free range when affordabl…

Who said anything about "sitting around crying"? Also, I don't understand why you agree that animals should be killed humanely where possible if you don't care about their emotional state. >> I don't have a huge pile of care to spare for the emotional feelings of chickens and pigs, sorry to say. I get it. Most people are way far removed from the animals we eat to feel any emotional attachment to them and even most pe…

> Also, I don't understand why you agree that animals should be killed humanely where possible if you don't care about their emotional state.

I'll break that down for you.

I recognize animals can feel pain, and that they don't like it. I have pets, I don't want them to feel pain; but I also won't shell out thousands for vet care like some folks do if the worst should happen. In other words, I'm realistic about it while not being overly emotional. I think there's a curve function where we can choose the optimal level of reducing suffering while also maximizing the availability of protein for consumption; I think there's room on that curve for humane killing of livestock. No problem.

> nothing but the birds of our mass-production dependent way of life coming home to roost.

You sound like Ted Kaczynski. Mass-production is why you and I are here talking to each other; we owe our very lives to it.

> one that meat is murder, the other that all we should care about is how much meat costs.

At least with the latter philosophy we don't starve.

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#884
post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You haven’t kill much, didn’t you? A few things. Mostly fish. Mostly from lack of opportunity. I'm all for humane killing where possible, of course!

>humane killing Please explain how taking away another living, breathing creatures life can be humane.

Sure. We can estimate the level of pain caused, and minimize it. That's the definition of humane; it's totally arbitrary and it's up to us to define. Nobody said zero pain or suffering is on the table; it's not like it is an option in our own lives, either.

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#885

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I am arguing that if pigs were more intelligent than we are they would do to us exactly what we do to them, including keeping us in farms to eat later etc." I don't think this is necessarily true. Throughout our own history humanity has done things we regret and decided were wrong (or are actively fighting against). Slavery, genocide, kings, torture - while struggling towards more just societies based on rule of l…

>> It's quite possible that raising and killing other animals with lots of suffering is something we will regret. I agree it's possible and I believe we should- but what is regretable is the suffering, not the killing.

I agree with this more than you might think. It’s basically the position I used to hold too.

The main issue I have is that I think you can’t get the killing without the suffering.

There’s another piece too, about killing intelligent life (even without suffering). Basically the argument I made in a comment above.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26322873

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that still leaves open the issue of humans hunting animals for sport. For example, if someone enjoys hunting lions, is that "a good reason", in the same way that someone enjoying torturing a house cat is "not a good reason"? Fortunately I think there is a simple resolution to this question, in that torturing animals is heavily associated with (if not predictive or causative of) a tendency to harm humans too,…

>> I think that still leaves open the issue of humans hunting animals for sport. For example, if someone enjoys hunting lions, is that "a good reason", in the same way that someone enjoying torturing a house cat is "not a good reason"? I honestly don't think so. In the same way, I don't think it's a good reason to rape someone because it would give the rapist pleasure. There has to be a balance, right? Killing an ani…

> Killing an animal to eat it makes sense, because you can't eat it without klling it.

Just to think through the logic of that statement, let me also point out that killing an animal to mount its head on your wall makes sense, because you can't mount its head on your wall without killing it.

I think I agree with most of what you're saying, but we need to be careful not to hide implicit value judgements in our arguments like "Surely no reasonable person would want to hunt an animal for sport" or, conversely, "Surely no reasonable person would want to eat an animal for food (when there are so many delicious types of plant out there that provide nourishment just as well)".

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#887
post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "On a side note: I'm not vegetarian. I simply agree with those who are." This was my position for a long time until finally making the jump at the beginning of the pandemic (vegetarian, will rarely eat fish sometimes). For me, it was mostly about reducing suffering of other animals. I thought this way before but it's hard to change behavior and I liked hamburgers. I think this is the strongest argument and the envi…

I'm not trying to criticise you here at all, but since you don't eat meat mainly to reduce animal suffering, why are you okay with dairy? The dairy industry arguably abuses and mistreats animals far worse than the meat industry. Full disclosure: Vegetarian for 10 years, eat fish occasionally and have recently been trying to cut out dairy (but it's tough).

Probably because I’m new to it (about a year), it’s hard, and I’m imperfect.

Cutting milk I think would be easy (decent alternatives), but losing cheese would make things a lot more difficult.

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#888
post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>humane killing Please explain how taking away another living, breathing creatures life can be humane.

Is picking a flower or harvesting wheat inhumane? If not, is there something special about the process of breathing that makes animals more worthy of protection than plants?

I’d argue it’s the presence of neurons, brains, nervous systems that make the difference.

Re: Beyond Meat signs global supply deals with McDonald’s, KFC and Pizza Hut

#890

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corn consumed by cattle includes the corn stalks which are more or less the same as consuming grass. Corn is after all in the grass family. The actual kernels of corn increase the calories versus grass, but it’s not like cows are just eating corn off the cob all day long. They need to consume tons of roughage to help with their digestion. I think a good argument is that converting grain and grass to beef is ineff…

It is well documented that once cows are switched to the pure corn diets we now feed them, their health starts immediately declining and they start dying. Factory farms time it so that they grow up on grass and similar, then are switched to grain to fatten them, and are slaughtered before becoming too ill. There are many unhealthy modifications made to their diet and environment to force them to consume corn. This is…

Not every farmer feeds their cows corn/grains. Find a local farmer that raises their cattle on pasture and reward them for their efforts.
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