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China's scheme to transfer Uighurs into work

bbc.com

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Re: China's scheme to transfer Uighurs into work

#31

Post by fallingfrog »

Is this article one of those super contentious things where people just downvote every comment even if you’re just saying innocuous things like “I wish we had objective facts”? Because I want objective facts, and the truth, in every situation including this one, is that really such a controversial take? What is going on here?

Edit: yep, it’s a flame war with crazy idealogues on both sides saying things that don’t really belong on HN, I flagged it, everyone else should too.

Edit 2: I learned a valuable lesson today: don’t participate in a conversation where flamewars are happening, even if you are trying to advocate some reasonable middle ground. You’re just giving oxygen to the crazies. Flag and move on. Thank you everyone for helping me learn this.

Re: China's scheme to transfer Uighurs into work

#33

Post by soco »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #25
christophilus wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China really is more like fascism than Marxism in my opinion. I occasionally follow some communists on Twitter, and they are surprisingly pro-China even though China is a far cry from their Marxist ideals.

It’s very interesting to me how often communism ends up looking like fascism, and yet many people are very open and tolerant of the former while absolutely petrified of the latter. Violent authoritarians concern me in general, and I take little comfort in them being left-wing, rather than right-wing, authoritarians. EDIT: Lots of downvotes and no rebuttals. Looks like I inadvertently struck a nerve.

I don't think people are that open to communism. Rather, they are open to that utopia the communism-by-the-book is trying to sell. In the end this nuance is irrelevant because all the real-world communisms we ever had are (and were) rather dystopian, yet somehow still managing to sell themselves to the utopists. Maybe because people believe what they want to believe?

Re: China's scheme to transfer Uighurs into work

#34

Post by La1n »

fallingfrog wrote: post #31

Is this article one of those super contentious things where people just downvote every comment even if you’re just saying innocuous things like “I wish we had objective facts”? Because I want objective facts, and the truth, in every situation including this one, is that really such a controversial take? What is going on here? Edit: yep, it’s a flame war with crazy idealogues on both sides saying things that don’t rea…

>What is going on here?

An article that is basically flamebait for nationalistic flamewars and doesn't belong on HN.

Re: China's scheme to transfer Uighurs into work

#35

Post by kggbcsehn »

Chris2048 wrote: post #29
christophilus wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China really is more like fascism than Marxism in my opinion. I occasionally follow some communists on Twitter, and they are surprisingly pro-China even though China is a far cry from their Marxist ideals.

I think the narrative that fascism and communism are "opposite ends" of some relevant spectrum are flawed. I also disagree that historically "communist" countries are truly communist/socialist, when they often maintained they lived up to certain ideals that they didn't - where does Marx promote purges, for example? Those nations are no more left/liberal than the Nazi party is socialist.

Yeah they're the same ruling structure, the only difference is that Communism enforces a Marx-like or Marx-derived ideology as the only allowed belief system and fascism doesn't have a well defined ideology, it's just used as another word for authoritarian. Fascism honestly doesn't even have a great definition outside of historical fascism

Re: China's scheme to transfer Uighurs into work

#36

Post by refenestrator »

echelon wrote: post #3

How can we make sure the products we're buying are Uighur labor free? I don't want to contribute to this.

There's no reference to forced labor anywhere in the article. It's just typical Chinese migrant labor, going from absolute 3rd world subsistence farming to a crappy, dangerous tenement factory job because that's actually an improvement.

So I'm not sure boycotting their work product is necessarily the right moral call here, even if it were possible.

Re: China's scheme to transfer Uighurs into work

#37

Post by fallingfrog »

kggbcsehn wrote: post #30
throwaway894345 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s very interesting to me how often communism ends up looking like fascism, and yet many people are very open and tolerant of the former while absolutely petrified of the latter. Violent authoritarians concern me in general, and I take little comfort in them being left-wing, rather than right-wing, authoritarians. EDIT: Lots of downvotes and no rebuttals. Looks like I inadvertently struck a nerve.

Communism is cloaked in false promises and the US has failed to teach the youth this, so they are attracted to the lies that sell the ideology. You can also thank Bernie Sanders and AOC for repairing the brand of socialism with their incredibly harmful rhetoric

Yes, we all know that asking for health care is the same as opening up gulags. Jee whiz..

Re: China's scheme to transfer Uighurs into work

#38

Post by soco »

kggbcsehn wrote: post #30
throwaway894345 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s very interesting to me how often communism ends up looking like fascism, and yet many people are very open and tolerant of the former while absolutely petrified of the latter. Violent authoritarians concern me in general, and I take little comfort in them being left-wing, rather than right-wing, authoritarians. EDIT: Lots of downvotes and no rebuttals. Looks like I inadvertently struck a nerve.

Communism is cloaked in false promises and the US has failed to teach the youth this, so they are attracted to the lies that sell the ideology. You can also thank Bernie Sanders and AOC for repairing the brand of socialism with their incredibly harmful rhetoric

You have a very valid point in the first paragraph, and the second by mixing communism with socialism actually underlines the first one even better. I think US and not only (hello France or Italy) are constantly failing to properly educate people by identifying and naming all those currents. Clumping them together to better vilify them only makes them more attractive for the inevitable rebels.

Re: China's scheme to transfer Uighurs into work

#39

Post by ravenstine »

fallingfrog wrote: post #17
nomdep wrote: post #7

[flagged]

Let’s be balanced; China is not as bad as Nazi Germany. Not even close. But it is true that this soft cultural erasure that they are attempting is very evil. Lol me: let’s be balanced You: DIE APOSTATE Usually I’m the one going all nonlinear! That’s my job guys!

[flagged]

Re: China's scheme to transfer Uighurs into work

#40

Post by powerapple »

sonicggg wrote: post #10

China is not innocent by any means, but I sense some hypocrisy from those that arrogantly think they have a higher moral ground here. Pretty much every country has their own "Trail of Tears", even the progressive and almighty Canada only closed their oppressive Indian Residence school systems recently. Are we supposed to boycott everyone then, and go back to hunting and gathering?

Why 'China is not innocent'? Yes, China is not Europe, and it is not US. So is its per capital GDP. so is its business. so is it brands. so is its industry. I wouldn't trust BBC at all on these reports. Journalists could use facts but they choose to lie again and again.

At the same time, the British government is playing their game. Coincidence?

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