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Being on Call

tyler.kim

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Re: Being on Call

#131

Post by devchix »

steveBK123 wrote: post #129
sershe wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The usual way to handle the "different system" issue is to have on-calls in each team, so you could loop them in for their stuff or even transfer the ticket and go back to sleep; and on-call-focused documentation within teams so you can have some notion of every component that they are not intimately familiar with. I hate on-call; it doesn't stress me out but I'm generally very protective of my personal time, especia…

I have found in my career that being too good at on-call/L3 escalations only makes them come to you more. Teams that have slopey shoulders and phones that seem to always go to voicemail.. don’t get reprimanded, and your team gets to keep playing hero.

This is an observable truth. Be good, but don't show that you're too good. You'll get called all the time, even for stuff you're not good at. You'll be the janitor for all kinds of idiotic mess, and the perverse incentive will make them call and rely on you more, and you get less of your work and what's important to you done. Here's a joke that'll provoke cynical laughter: What do you get for winning a pie eating contest? More pies.

The world breaks everyone.

Re: Being on Call

#132

Post by tharkun__ »

znpy wrote: post #122
tharkun__ wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately not because most shops in Germany opened at 10am. It's much better nowadays in that AG least grocery stores are open to 10pm.

then come in earlier, i guess?

Nowadays absolutely, at least for groceries. Then again I don't live there any longer :) Back when I was a kid? Not so much.

Just looked it up. They were actually allowed to open from 7a.m. but at least where we lived, the regular shops in the city would only open at 10a.m. Shops were allowed to open until 6:30p.m. and not sure how long they actually did.

We only had one car and lived too far from a large grocery store that would carry everything and at proper prices to walk/bike for larger volumes. So we only did them when my dad was home and could drive us (mostly - I do remember having to bike there from time to time).

But usually it meant doing it on Saturdays. Shops were allowed to open until 2p.m. on Saturdays and closed on Sundays. We definitely made use of the "long Saturday" - one Saturday per month, they were allowed to open to 6p.m.

Re: Being on Call

#133

Post by watwut »

bayindirh wrote: post #94
watwut wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not distorting. I am using unambiguous example of what I have in mind. > soldiers even in terrible groups, and that they (individuals) should not be judged on their group but on their own qualities of service. Unless you was forced into that group, which was not case of SS but in some cases could be ISIS, you know what you were joining. I don't think sacrifice itself is worth respect, if the goal of that sacrifi…

> I don't think sacrifice itself is worth respect, if the goal of that sacrifice is destructive and wrong. Wrong is a subjective term and relative to viewing point. This is exactly what I'm avoiding here. I'm not discussing whether it's right or wrong from one particular perspective. Moreover, I'm trying to direct discussion away from war and other sensitive matters with all the power I have with my words, but you wa…

I intentionally uses also example of SS which was state army. ISIS see themselves as army for state too. For that matter, genocide in China and Rwanda were all helped by regular armies.

It is simply not true that all armies would primary defend. You make the "state run army therefore good" implication, not me. You are not leaving politics out when you claim that sacrifice of joining army is always wortht of respect. It is very political statement that prevents criticism of armies and empowers abusers in uniform.

What you are doing is trying to divorce consequences of joining those organizations and paint their members in unfairly good lights.

Sacrifice is also subjective. Some of those people like the organizations they are in.

Re: Being on Call

#134

Post by bayindirh »

watwut wrote: post #133
bayindirh wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think sacrifice itself is worth respect, if the goal of that sacrifice is destructive and wrong. Wrong is a subjective term and relative to viewing point. This is exactly what I'm avoiding here. I'm not discussing whether it's right or wrong from one particular perspective. Moreover, I'm trying to direct discussion away from war and other sensitive matters with all the power I have with my words, but you wa…

I intentionally uses also example of SS which was state army. ISIS see themselves as army for state too. For that matter, genocide in China and Rwanda were all helped by regular armies. It is simply not true that all armies would primary defend. You make the "state run army therefore good" implication, not me. You are not leaving politics out when you claim that sacrifice of joining army is always wortht of respect.…

> It is simply not true that all armies would primary defend. You make the "state run army therefore good" implication, not me.

Maybe the armies I've seen are only were defending and wasn't causing any harm, and my view is distorted on that one. I can accept that. OTOH, the core of my comment is "Accepting a hard duty and dedicating yourself to it at the level of deforming yourself is worthy of respect".

This is not a weapon/army thing. Healthcare workers are doing this for more than a year now and most people respond with "So, what?". This is just ridiculous.

> What you are doing is trying to divorce consequences of joining those organizations and paint their members in unfairly good lights.

That's a brave accusation considering the information I've disclosed in the comment you're replying to.

> Sacrifice is also subjective. Some of those people like the organizations they are in.

Liking an organization doesn't exclude sacrifices. A lot of people are sacrificing their personal and family lives because they like the corporations they work in.

The aforementioned healthcare workers also fit into this definition. This is not a job which you can do without liking/loving. It also needs some sacrifices. Both personal and interpersonal.

Re: Being on Call

#136

Post by mbrodersen »

etripe wrote: post #69
goatinaboat wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're looking for logic then you don't understand how these organizations work The logic is that everyone must be replaceable on a moments notice because they might be shot and someone else will need to pick up that job. Having roles that you need to be intimately familiar with in order to be effective is the exact opposite of what the military needs. If a job can be done by someone with minimal training while de…

Even in offices, the myth is that everyone is replaceable at a moment's notice, because that is a comfortable thought for those in charge that makes it easier to play "4D chess" with the corporate pawns and integrate seamlessly with quarterly and yearly budgets. It's based on the law of averages and cements ending up with mediocre workers and products at best. Exceptional workers in key (non-management) positions wil…

You are 100% correct. It costs a lot of $ and time (6 months or longer) to replace a good software developer. So if you do it all the time, your company will be operating way below what it needs to be competitive. The moment your company management starts saying “everybody is replaceable” you know the company is going downhill and it is time for you to find a better job.

Re: Being on Call

#137

Post by mbrodersen »

bayindirh wrote: post #13
yuliyp wrote: post #5

What is the point of such a crazy schedule? If someone has to do a double-graveyard shift and is basically useless the rest of the week, why not just split that shift into two so you don't destroy all of the people who try to cover such shifts. People can generally work 4-12 without much trouble or needing to recover after it other than weekends. Doing 12-8 might be an every other night kind of thing. Having a couple…

I'm not military, but worked with them for two years, sometimes with similar schedules. My view about being a soldier, a serviceman has changed drastically during that projects. The cause is noble, and the thing they're doing is very hard . Make no mistake here. On the other hand, they're stripped of their emotions and humanity to an extent. They become something else, an hardened being after some time. Because, they…

Being a soldier is in itself not honourable or noble. Most atrocities are committed by armed soldiers killing unarmed civilians (or killing civilians using drones because they happen to stand near a wanted target). It is what you do as a soldier (or civilian) that makes you honourable or not.

Re: Being on Call

#138

Post by sershe »

devchix wrote: post #131
steveBK123 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found in my career that being too good at on-call/L3 escalations only makes them come to you more. Teams that have slopey shoulders and phones that seem to always go to voicemail.. don’t get reprimanded, and your team gets to keep playing hero.

This is an observable truth. Be good, but don't show that you're too good. You'll get called all the time, even for stuff you're not good at. You'll be the janitor for all kinds of idiotic mess, and the perverse incentive will make them call and rely on you more, and you get less of your work and what's important to you done. Here's a joke that'll provoke cynical laughter: What do you get for winning a pie eating con…

I suppose that could be true in small organizations... not a problem in a more regimented on-call setup. My phone is on alarms-only at night when I'm not on-call, so they cannot physically call me :) I suppose people could still ask during the day, but generally in a good on-call culture it's frowned upon (unless you own the component or it's an all-hands-on-deck emergency where extra hands are actually helpful).

Re: Being on Call

#139

Post by antihero »

viraptor wrote: post #76
gambiting wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes wonder where the hell most HNers work where 9am is not considered late start. At a warehouse I worked at the shift was 6am to 2pm. And it was great that way as you avoided most of the summer heat. The software company where I work now, 8am is standard, that way you're nicely done at 4pm and have the entire evening to yourself. My wife is also a programmer and usually starts at 7:30am because that's their…

9-5 is pretty common in the US and UK companies. Dolly Parton had a song about it...

Except that now it is generally 9-6 :(

Re: Being on Call

#140

Post by antihero »

dd_roger wrote: post #85
antihero wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what hellish sort of company is 9AM "late"?

There's no company policy mandating me to start that early yet I start between 7am and 7:30am, by 8am the office is mostly full. The earlier you start the more daylight left to enjoy at the end of the day. 9am really sounds awfully late. People who start at 9 don't enjoy their morning any more than I do. They just wake up later. And it forces them to stay longer in the evening while I'm out taking advantage of the ex…

Ah, so if you're doing an 8 hour day you leave at 3PM (if you skip lunch)?
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