Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear' • Hacker News Board

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#621

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:15 AM UTC

undefined1 wrote: post #471

bachmeier wrote: post #117

Surprising how much press "cancel culture" gets these days as if it's a new thing or as if it's a new thing being pushed on society by the left . We've always had cancel culture. Some might remember the Dixie Chicks. How about the Rachael Ray ad that Dunkin Donuts pulled merely because it looked like an Arab scarf? Jerry Falwell came to prominence entirely based on his pushing of cancel culture. When I lived in North…

many of us were against it when the puritanical right was censoring people/art/media, and we're still against it now that it's a puritanical left censoring people/art/media. why is that so hard to understand and to be consistent about this? people need to stop getting distracted by naked partisanship and focus on the issue. a principled stance is key! now we're seeing big tech getting roped in and the tools of censor…

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Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#622

Post by ebcode » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:22 AM UTC

taurath wrote: post #527

mxcrossb wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also find this topic far more interesting than the fairly cliche discussion over “cancel culture”. It seems like conservatives have caught up to post modernism, whereas liberals are now passionate about objective truth and morality being black and white. I really wonder how tenable these positions are going forward.

I’d rather have them vigorously defending for their right to be a bigot than be a bigot actually with cultural power, having grown up during the latter. Free expression of contrary views is also important (though not ALL contrary views). What I think will happen is further Balkanization of the internet. We can’t all play in the exact same sandbox. Echo chambers are not new - people lived within distinct communities b…

> Now if we could have platforms that didn’t reward shallow engagements maybe we could get somewhere.

... and that is precisely why I find HN (despite its flaws) to be one of the most interesting places for discourse. The aggressive moderation by dang and friends gives this forum a coherence that is hard to find anywhere else.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#623

Post by username34912 » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

bachmeier wrote: post #117

Surprising how much press "cancel culture" gets these days as if it's a new thing or as if it's a new thing being pushed on society by the left . We've always had cancel culture. Some might remember the Dixie Chicks. How about the Rachael Ray ad that Dunkin Donuts pulled merely because it looked like an Arab scarf? Jerry Falwell came to prominence entirely based on his pushing of cancel culture. When I lived in North…

I don't think this is a fair characterization. A lot of the biggest critics of cancel culture today (Sam Harris, Bret Weinstein, Bill Maher, etc) are moderate liberals who also criticized the right-wing Christian fundamentalist cancel culture of the Bush era. It's not hypocrisy, they really have been in favor of free speech the whole time.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#624

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 5:41 AM UTC

taurath wrote: post #617

swayvil wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It was scary. And now it is much more scary. The present, much greater, scariness in no way diminishes the prior scariness. And it was, and is, scary for many many more than just the "gays". Get some perspective here.

Can you quantify how or why it’s worse? It seems like it could also just seem like it’s “worse” to you since it is something that could actually effect you.

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Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#625

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 6:22 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #578

nine_k wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even sure it's a majority, just a very vocal and intolerant group, seen by many non-participants as doing a virtuous thing, fighting for social justice. Of course most businesses would not oppose such a force, because otherwise they will be a target themselves, and enough of a public opinion would be against them, at least vaguely. They have everything to lose, and very little to win if they do not conform. T…

Yeah, I’m very skeptical of who is the “majority” here. If you read Twitter and the NYT, you’d think that my minority group (American Muslim immigrants) is full of people like Ilhan Omar and Linda Sarsour. And it’s not. I literally know more Bangladeshi Trump supporters than super-progressive Bangladeshis. Plenty more Democrats, sure, but not particularly liberal ones. One thing that’s important to keep in mind is th…

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Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#626

Post by foepys » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 7:37 AM UTC

aparsons wrote: post #103

imwillofficial wrote: post #19

We live in an era in the western world which feels like pilgrim censorship with a new set of taboos, as opposed to an extremely tolerant love filled utopia we were promised. I want my love filled utopia dammit!

And you know what's the cherry on the sundae? A certain sect of people who signal/preach love and equity the loudest - almost always preach it in a 'for thou, not for me' sense. I had coworkers who would live in the whitest neighborhoods, fighting against lower-income housing near their homes, voting for the tallest of fences, and then they come into work and scoff at how X is a Trumpie because of one thing they said…

I noticed this, too. I suspect that it doesn't come down to believe but to social acceptance. It's currently en vogue to be pro diversity and contra racism which is good in and of itself but I don't think that all people are actually meaning and voting for it.

In some communities I see people being anti-rich in one thread and then discussing stock market gambling in the next to get rich. The same with income where they want more government spending on social welfare but oppose higher taxation on their STEM-level incomes.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#627

Post by lelanthran » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 8:12 AM UTC

bachmeier wrote: post #117

Surprising how much press "cancel culture" gets these days as if it's a new thing or as if it's a new thing being pushed on society by the left . We've always had cancel culture. Some might remember the Dixie Chicks. How about the Rachael Ray ad that Dunkin Donuts pulled merely because it looked like an Arab scarf? Jerry Falwell came to prominence entirely based on his pushing of cancel culture. When I lived in North…

> Apparently now that folks aren't just being cancelled for supporting gay marriage, the free exchange of ideas is suddenly important.

It was always important. What makes you think that the people (like myself) who oppose cancel culture were against gay marriage?

The demographic consisting of "people who oppose cancel culture" were instrumental in making progress for gay acceptance.

If we allowed cancel culture to flourish, there would be no acceptance of homosexuality, women wouldn't have equal rights, minorities would be denied opportunity, etc.

Considering all the benefits that freedom of speech brought us, you now suddenly want to take it away under the guise of "freedom of speech, not freedom from consequences"?

Do you seriously think that there are no more benefits from allowing people to advance their cause? To speak up for or against any particular idea?

I really really want to know: why are some ideologies so perfect that none be allowed to criticise them?

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#628

Post by mathw » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 8:16 AM UTC

imwillofficial wrote: post #19

We live in an era in the western world which feels like pilgrim censorship with a new set of taboos, as opposed to an extremely tolerant love filled utopia we were promised. I want my love filled utopia dammit!

Or we're dealing with the paradox of tolerance, where we cannot be tolerant of intolerance because the intolerant will destroy the tolerant culture which my generation have been trying to build. Some of us have, anyway. The one we feel is under threat because people like Donald Trump and Boris Johnson can still be elected to the leadership of powerful nations which are supposed to be fair and just but that looks like a mockery when you put a white racist dude in charge.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#629

Post by leereeves » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 8:37 AM UTC

taurath wrote: post #606

rayiner wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not what he did, any more than the dictionary is “racist” for printing a slur in order to refer to it. See: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/new-york-times-don-m...

From the article: > In the absence of a full accounting of this episode, I can’t make any firm judgment about the merits of McNeil’s departure. For all I know, he could have been acting unprofessionally for years, and it took a few teens to force the Times to take action it should have taken years ago. So this is a he said they said situation. The nymag article doesn’t account for the sexist accusations as well. The…

First, the students were in high school, not college. This story is all about details.

Second, what sexist language, exactly? What did he actually say? We certainly can't trust the mere accusation from a source like The Daily Beast. And again, this story is all about details.

Third, it's easy to believe the NYT overreacted here given the evidence from other incidents. For example:

James Bennet, the editorial page editor, resigned under pressure after publishing an op-ed by a sitting US Senator.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/business/media/james-benn...

Lauren Wolfe, a freelance editor, claims she was fired for tweeting “Biden landing at Joint Base Andrews now. I have chills.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/25/lauren-wo...

Bari Weiss, who accused the paper of "unlawful discrimination, hostile work environment, and constructive discharge" described the situation as:

> Twitter is not on the masthead of The New York Times. But Twitter has become its ultimate editor.

> Stories are chosen and told in a way to satisfy the narrowest of audiences, rather than to allow a curious public to read about the world and then draw their own conclusions.

> All this bodes ill, especially for independent-minded young writers and editors paying close attention to what they’ll have to do to advance in their careers. Rule One: Speak your mind at your own peril. Rule Two: Never risk commissioning a story that goes against the narrative. Rule Three: Never believe an editor or publisher who urges you to go against the grain.

> Even now, I am confident that most people at The Times do not hold these views. Yet they are cowed by those who do. Why? Perhaps because they believe the ultimate goal is righteous. Perhaps because they believe that they will be granted protection if they nod along as the coin of our realm—language—is degraded in service to an ever-shifting laundry list of right causes. Perhaps because there are millions of unemployed people in this country and they feel lucky to have a job in a contracting industry.

> Or perhaps it is because they know that, nowadays, standing up for principle at the paper does not win plaudits. It puts a target on your back. Too wise to post on Slack, they write to me privately about the “new McCarthyism” that has taken root at the paper of record.

https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#630

Post by mathw » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 8:37 AM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #9

I find it almost funny how the media/culture/etc. seems determined to build a group of people that will react negatively to so-called "cancel culture." They seem to think that people will gladly follow the ever-growing list of arbitrary rules indefinitely. If I were a betting man, I'd predict a resurgence in punk attitudes in about 2025 or 2030. At some point, the dam will break and people will stop caring. I already…

What's arbitrary about it?

Just be nice to people! Don't go around saying racist or sexist or homophobic things in public.

We'd really, really like it if our kids grew up not being scared to tell us they're gay, or if our black friends would be no more scared of a white cop than our white friends are, or if our trans women friends aren't at risk of being murdered for using a pointlessly gendered public facility.

And while people are at it, it'd be really nice to stop electing white racists to the leadership of prominent and powerful countries.

My sense of the younger generation here is that if they're tired of it it's because they don't understand what our problem is.