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Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

bbc.com

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Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#611

Post by taurath »

Igelau wrote: post #607
taurath wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the daily beast - > McNeil repeatedly made racist and sexist remarks throughout the trip including, according to two complaints, using the “n-word.” I don’t understand how this is related to cancel culture, given it’s been corporate policy to not make racist and sexist remarks for decades? And just, regular human decency? What are the arguments for keeping this person employed by a major news organization?

If you don't understand, you're not paying attention. There's a big difference between saying a word and using a word. He was answering a question about someone else's use of the word and trying to clarify. What he essentially said was "Did she actually say 'n_____'?" It sounds to me like a few kids at this conference were butthurt for being told they were wrong about completely unrelated questions, and pounced like…

I’m paying attention, but my filter is different than yours. I am pretty liable to think that sheltered college students can be very overly sensitive to usages of words, but on the other hand the accusations (according to the daily beast article) don’t seem to center around the usage of a word, and the NYT investigated.

If it fits ones narrative then they’ll believe it one way. If it fits ones narrative that old reporter said a bunch of stuff that demonstrated really questionable judgement if not disdain, then you’ll believe it that way. The NYT say they investigated, so it comes down to whether you believe them to be fair in that process (I would think if I worked there I’d want it to be a fair process). Not having any primary information, I don’t feel compelled to make any judgement of fault here.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#613

Post by scythe »

rayiner wrote: post #559
stjohnswarts wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's coming from both sides you can't deny that. Look at the dangerous appointments made to the judicial branch. While the far left dominate twitter and social media and try to cancel everyone the evangelicals are doing pretty well at cancelling liberal voting rights and women's rights if you aren't paying attention. It's as if people things others don't have a right to think in any way other than the way they think…

ACB is so “dangerous” she might vote to overturn Roe and thereby make abortion a legislative rather than constitutional issue, as in almost every developed country such as France. https://repository.law.uic.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2... . Far-right wing ACB might possibly vote the same way as the ... European Court of Human Rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A,_B_and_C_v_Ireland > A, B and C v Ireland is a…

>Far-right wing ACB might possibly vote the same way as the ... European Court of Human Rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A,_B_and_C_v_Ireland

> > A, B and C v Ireland is a landmark 2010 case of the European Court of Human Rights on the right to privacy under Article 8. The court rejected the argument that article 8 conferred a right to abortion

Article 8 states:

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

COTUS A14 states:

...nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

The latter is clearly broader.

>the US states would be free to draw the line for on-demand abortions without any medical emergencies at 12-13 weeks,

A farcical conjecture, when we all know the actual likely outcome.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#614

Post by aaron695 »

bachmeier wrote: post #117

Surprising how much press "cancel culture" gets these days as if it's a new thing or as if it's a new thing being pushed on society by the left . We've always had cancel culture. Some might remember the Dixie Chicks. How about the Rachael Ray ad that Dunkin Donuts pulled merely because it looked like an Arab scarf? Jerry Falwell came to prominence entirely based on his pushing of cancel culture. When I lived in North…

Surprising how much press "Flying Cars" gets these days as if it's a new thing or as if it's a new thing being pushed on society by the VCs. We've always had "Flying Cars".

https://weburbanist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/curtiss-a...

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#615

Post by 3np »

jack1243star wrote: post #600
3np wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you work at Palantir or the GOPs social media department or something? Because that sounds extreme and can’t be just about income levels BTW it’s freeing coming from a country where discussing income and money is taboo. I don’t even know what my parents earn. It has its downsides as well, but it’s nice not even being able to judge.

It happens on HN as well, if you work for Google or FB.

Never seen that. Lots of skepticism and animosity to the companies themselves, which is at it should given their position. Never seen it directed at individuals just for being employed at either of those, though.

Don’t be surprised if no one appreciates or even cares about your work besides your employer. It’s part of the package.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#616

Post by taurath »

slibhb wrote: post #582
taurath wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the daily beast - > McNeil repeatedly made racist and sexist remarks throughout the trip including, according to two complaints, using the “n-word.” I don’t understand how this is related to cancel culture, given it’s been corporate policy to not make racist and sexist remarks for decades? And just, regular human decency? What are the arguments for keeping this person employed by a major news organization?

You can read McNeil's perspective: https://donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com/nytimes-peru-n-word-p... No one reasonable thinks he made a racist remark.

I think he posted a reasonable and thoughtful response - in it however be pretty much admits he could’ve said some very disparaging things.

> I told him what I’d actually said in Peru. He said, “Donald, you sound exactly like my father. He would also say ‘You can’t dress like a thug to a job interview and expect to get the job.’ But from you, it sounds racist.” I said “How is ‘thug’ racist? What about Thug Life Records?” He said “It’s almost the equivalent of the n-word. Don’t you know about Marshawn Lynch?’’ I said: “He plays for Seattle?” I could hear him sigh. “No, Donald, let me explain…”

So it seems like he by his own admission probably said some stuff that was frankly out of bounds. But doesn’t necessarily mean he deserves to be fired.

Being blind to how one speaks and how it affects others however, is not a trait that I’d imagine most newsrooms are looking for, at all. His finally thought:

> One last thought: what’s happened to me has been called a “witch hunt.” It isn’t. It’s a series of misunderstandings and blunders.

I mean, I feel like that says it all? A victim of a changing culture? Probably. But sound judgement in the here and now is a prerequisite for employment in an industry like journalism. You can’t just lie back and wax nostalgic about how things that were acceptable aren’t now, and believe that excuses ones current actions. Hopefully we’ve progressed a bit. It’s sad what happened to him, but I get the feeling he knows he did make a few “off-color” remarks and was quite unaware of the lens society views comments like that. The latter part is probably the real fault.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#617

Post by taurath »

swayvil wrote: post #595
taurath wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? Or are we all working off of anecdotes here. Do you have data to back that up? Further - it was pretty scary getting cancelled by my parents and community when I came out. I’m glad it wasn’t scary for you.

Yes. It was scary. And now it is much more scary. The present, much greater, scariness in no way diminishes the prior scariness. And it was, and is, scary for many many more than just the "gays". Get some perspective here.

Can you quantify how or why it’s worse? It seems like it could also just seem like it’s “worse” to you since it is something that could actually effect you.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#618

Post by rossjudson »

subsubzero wrote: post #82
BitwiseFool wrote: post #14

I genuinely wonder what cancel culture is going to look like in the next 5-10 years and beyond. Just about everyone I speak to about the subject agrees that cancel culture is bad but very few people seem willing to confront it. I sense that people hope the rest of society will come to its senses and we all stop being so judgemental. But as much as I loathe cancel culture and it's chilling effects on the free exchange…

I think that in 50 years, maybe even 20 years cancel culture will be looked at a low point in the culture of the US and its adherents will try to disassociate themselves with it by saying thats how people thought/acted back then(popular sentiment). Similar to McCarthyism and its blacklists which ruined actors/directors, that moment is taught in history books as a backwards time, cancel culture will be similar.

Yeah, it seems that way to me too. I think it will be viewed as a backwards and sad episode that cost...well, everyone...a great deal.

It's 70% power, 20% revenge, and 10% justice. A cri-de-coeur of the bored. If it happened in an elementary school we'd call it bullying.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#619

Post by LegitShady »

inglor_cz wrote: post #288
commandlinefan wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way we'll ever be able to combat cancel culture is through online anonymity. I fear that we're drifting in the other direction, though - specifically to make cancellation easier.

I think the real answer is resilience. Enough people, especially those in positions of power (who decide whether to fire someone), must stop giving a shit. There will be some evolutionary pressure there. I don't think Elon Musk would fire his engineer over a doubtful tweet, given that his own Twitter feed is pretty wild. Once some places establish themselves as safe, they will attract "mouthy talent".

You will be declared alt right. You will be declared a nazi even if you are jewish.

Your employer will get phone calls, tweets, emails, constant harassment until they agree to fire you. They will use other people harassing you as a reason to fire you. Being fired is controversial, and they will use the firing as another weapon against you. "the former x company engineer let go because..." etc

They will talk about you in a million places a thousand times a day. People who never knew you existed will only know you as that guy who they said was evil.

If you work for Elon Musk, great. If you don't, you might be well and truly screwed.

When enough people stopped giving a shit they got lumped in with other enemies. That's the way orthodoxy works.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#620

Post by ruminty »

mvc wrote: post #594
hattmall wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quality of football. Kaepernick wasn't that good. Take a mediocre player brings in a controversy and its not worth the gamble. Have him out of the league and his skill falls further. What's more telling is that he is still talked about, most similar talent football players simply fall to the wayside. If he had been good he would have been playing football.

Funny how it took 6 whole seasons to figure that out. Must have been a coincidence to do so when a lot of NFL fans are tweeting out messages saying they'll boycott the league if it doesn't cancel him due to his "disrespect for the flag" (a flag I saw recently being used at the capitol to beat up on one of those blue lives that I heard matter so much).

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