Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear' • Hacker News Board

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#571

Post by leereeves » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 2:09 AM UTC

taurath wrote: post #565

leereeves wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As it happens, there's an example being discussed here on HN right now: the NYT pushed out Donald McNeil Jr. for saying "You should never call someone a [N-word]". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26306020

From the daily beast - > McNeil repeatedly made racist and sexist remarks throughout the trip including, according to two complaints, using the “n-word.” I don’t understand how this is related to cancel culture, given it’s been corporate policy to not make racist and sexist remarks for decades? And just, regular human decency? What are the arguments for keeping this person employed by a major news organization?

Are we supposed to believe a vague allegation from a publication that so badly misrepresents a statement like "You should never call someone a [n-word]"?

His use of that word was supposed to be a smoking gun, but instead their story seems to be all smoke and mirrors.

That's a perfect example of cancel culture: the mere allegation is enough, proof is neither required nor given.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#572

Post by jtbayly » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 2:10 AM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #561

jtbayly wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Christian faith is based on the fundamental fact that Jesus is God in human flesh. I worship Jesus. Muslims do not. No Muslim will claim to worship the same God as I do.

I will not even try to discuss the intricacies of Trinity; the Nicene Council tried hard to come to an agreement regarding it, and in 1054, details of it were the cause of the Great Schism.

We’re not talking about the intricacies, though. We’re talking about the basics of it.

Every Christian worships Jesus as God. No Muslim will. It’s that simple.

When Muhammad says that Jesus is a prophet, it is a rejection of what Jesus claimed about Himself. “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me.”

Many of course have tried to act as though the two are compatible, but when you come right down to it, I believe what Jesus said, and Muhammad didn’t.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#573

Post by hda2 » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 2:11 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #541

nyolfen wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe internally, but i haven't heard of conservatives getting random kids on twitter expelled from school lately

> haven't heard of conservatives getting random kids on twitter expelled from school lately I have, for actual kids (as in children, not young adults), including lately. Usually for something like “their mother has an OnlyFans page”.

Source please.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#574

Post by lowdownfork » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 2:12 AM UTC

bachmeier wrote: post #117

Surprising how much press "cancel culture" gets these days as if it's a new thing or as if it's a new thing being pushed on society by the left . We've always had cancel culture. Some might remember the Dixie Chicks. How about the Rachael Ray ad that Dunkin Donuts pulled merely because it looked like an Arab scarf? Jerry Falwell came to prominence entirely based on his pushing of cancel culture. When I lived in North…

It's new and bad that unknown authors can face massive backlash while they're still unknown. You can sell twenty copies of your first book and get twenty million calls for a boycott in response, if someone photographs a page and tweets a hot take.

That was technically possible before social media, but only if someone powerful decided to make an example of you. Now it can happen because a random person was bored or in a bad mood.

That's specifically what Ishiguro was complaining about. He even said he wasn't worried about influential people like himself (or all the examples you gave). I don't think he used the phrase "cancel culture," either.

> Apparently now that folks aren't just being cancelled for supporting gay marriage, the free exchange of ideas is suddenly important.

Some people suddenly started caring about the free exchange of ideas and others suddenly stopped, but you might be surprised how many just continued. To me, the ones who suddenly stopped are the biggest hypocrites of all.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#575

Post by IAmWorried » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

Bakary wrote: post #566

IAmWorried wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, poisoning my dog or vandalizing my car is illegal. Whipping up a twitter mob is legal and highly encouraged by an enormous number of people. I try not to be an ass to anyone, but jealousy and envy exists. It's now impossible for me to relax around some acquaintances who are unemployed while I pull in a big tech salary. All in all, I really made my mind up on this issue back during the BLM protests. This cancel…

The real scary truth is that people probably don't care as much about you as you might think they do. The way you frame the problem, assigning envy of your success to acquaintances by default, worrying about negative attention, reiterating how hard you've worked, leads me to believe that self-importance might be the underlying issue that saps your enjoyment of life. I say this not as a personal attack, but as a cauti…

I appreciate the comment, and you're right. It doesn't make any sense for me to worry about this type of stuff, and it does likely spring from my own self-centeredness. It's certainly easy to get caught up in the negative headlines these days, which is why I try to stick to HN - every once in a while, an article like this slips through and triggers me, I guess. Maybe step one towards changing my outlook would be changing my HN username...

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#576

Post by oh_sigh » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #450

bachmeier wrote: post #117

Surprising how much press "cancel culture" gets these days as if it's a new thing or as if it's a new thing being pushed on society by the left . We've always had cancel culture. Some might remember the Dixie Chicks. How about the Rachael Ray ad that Dunkin Donuts pulled merely because it looked like an Arab scarf? Jerry Falwell came to prominence entirely based on his pushing of cancel culture. When I lived in North…

The underpinnings of the "cancel culture", the intolerance and mob mentality, were always around. The "cancel culture" adds two news things to the picture. One is the ability for anyone to participate, not just the few on the TV screen or newspaper pages. Another is the attempts at totality: expel the victim from every social media platform, every internet hosting, every payment platform, every public venue. It's not…

I think the inward-lookingness of cancellation is key here. Regarding attempts at totality, in the past, if you were cancelled, it was because you were group A masquerading in a group B world, and group B found out and kicked you out of B-world. But, importantly, Group B couldn't cancel you in the eyes of Group A, only in their own eyes. So if you were found out, your direct life got cancelled but there was frequently another segment of society welcoming you with open arms.

But now with the inward-lookingness of cancellation, you have people from group B who are cancelled by group B, and have no one to fall back on.

An example would be a teacher arguing for the support of gay marriage getting cancelled by a catholic school they work for. That person, in the past, could pick up their bags and move in with the liberals next door. Yes, they lost their job, and maybe half of their associates, but they still have the other half who would be more than welcoming of them for the plight they've been through.

But what happens when a group cancels their own? For example, the Peru N-word journo. By all appearances, he is a liberal-minded person, who worked for a liberal-minded newspaper, in one of the most liberal-minded cities in the nation. But now he got cancelled by his colleagues. What is he supposed to do - go hang out with white supremacists? Neither side would find that appealing. So instead he has to...not partake in society at all?

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#577

Post by google234123 » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

KittenInABox wrote: post #465

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #80

Can you really blame authors? Anything that is even mildly controversial can easily result in effectively being banned from participating on various platforms. More recent example of this weird feedback loop is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Sexually_Identify_as_an_Atta...

Isabel Fall is a pseudonym; she can likely publish elsewhere under a different name. (This doesn't mean the response was proportionate or appropriate. The response to that story was way too far. But Isabel Fall herself can publish elsewhere under another pseudonym.)

How does that make it better? What if she had published under her real name? Do you think she could have published again after? Do we all have to publish under pseudonym's now for our own safety?

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#578

Post by rayiner » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 2:19 AM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #532

president wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot on. The interesting thing to note about the "mob mentality" of cancel culture in 2021 is that it is truly "power to the people". Essentially you have major corporations, politicians, and a media environment that are ceding to the cancelling demands of a certain majority because they will reap the rewards of this massive group of people whether that is more sales/profits, more votes, or more views. It is a story…

I'm not even sure it's a majority, just a very vocal and intolerant group, seen by many non-participants as doing a virtuous thing, fighting for social justice. Of course most businesses would not oppose such a force, because otherwise they will be a target themselves, and enough of a public opinion would be against them, at least vaguely. They have everything to lose, and very little to win if they do not conform. T…

Yeah, I’m very skeptical of who is the “majority” here. If you read Twitter and the NYT, you’d think that my minority group (American Muslim immigrants) is full of people like Ilhan Omar and Linda Sarsour. And it’s not. I literally know more Bangladeshi Trump supporters than super-progressive Bangladeshis. Plenty more Democrats, sure, but not particularly liberal ones.

One thing that’s important to keep in mind is that most people of color largely don’t even read the NYT, or NPR. Fox News is a far more popular news source among people of color, even Democrats: https://www.journalism.org/2020/03/11/black-and-white-democr...

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#579

Post by leereeves » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 2:22 AM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #458

nine_k wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underpinnings of the "cancel culture", the intolerance and mob mentality, were always around. The "cancel culture" adds two news things to the picture. One is the ability for anyone to participate, not just the few on the TV screen or newspaper pages. Another is the attempts at totality: expel the victim from every social media platform, every internet hosting, every payment platform, every public venue. It's not…

Modulo specific technology, that's how life was if you were gay, Jewsish, Black, Asian or communist at certain times. None of that is new and the point stands.

It was wrong then too.

And what claim stands, exactly? Are you suggesting that because something bad has happened before, it shouldn't be opposed now?

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#580

Post by jtbayly » Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 2:22 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #551

jtbayly wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A professor at a Christian college claimed to be in religious solidarity with Muslims. That’s pretty much like saying that you’re attempting to further Facebook’s goals as a Google employee. Of course you get fired.

> A professor at a Christian college claimed to be in religious solidarity with Muslims. I'm not sure if the greater theological offense was the solidarity with Muslims or quoting the Pope in support of it (Wheaton had only a few years before fired a professor for converting to Catholicism; “Christian” isn't a label of a monolithic group in practice.)

It doesn’t matter. Either way you are not dealing with cancel culture. You are dealing with somebody who has gone on the record s as opposing the fundamental goals of the organization she works for. As I said before, of course you get fired.