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Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

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371–380 of 694 posts

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Diversity”, like what happened with Lawrence H. Summers? An individual who I thought got a raw deal and was completely misunderstood, when he gave his speech.

Really? Seems like a typical parenthetical elite, with all the connections and intrigue that go with it. His history is a standard playbook of actions benefiting himself and his people over everyone else.

His speech elicited a walk-out. It was received very badly and it led to his ouster.

As far as I can tell he’s done well for himself since then, but that’s because he already had a network of connections.

One misconstrued speech was all it took to ruin a chance to lead a premier east coast uni.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's limited to just what you say in public. Videos and audio recordings have a way of triggering human emotions that writing simply does not. To tell you the truth, I live in perpetual fear that some acquaintance could secretly record me saying some non-PC thing in private, and post it to Twitter to get me cancelled. I have deleted all social media to try to achieve "out of sight, out of mind" but I st…

Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Just don't be an ass to people who you have locker room talk with and they won't have shit to say later. Sure, there's always those lizard-brained people who will smile then stab you in the back, but they could also just as easily poison your dog or cut your brake lines vs. ruin your life on social media. These are the choices we make. Or we can live as a hermits Ted Kaczynski-style.

Well, poisoning my dog or vandalizing my car is illegal. Whipping up a twitter mob is legal and highly encouraged by an enormous number of people.

I try not to be an ass to anyone, but jealousy and envy exists. It's now impossible for me to relax around some acquaintances who are unemployed while I pull in a big tech salary.

All in all, I really made my mind up on this issue back during the BLM protests. This cancel culture is orwellian, evil, and directly contrary to what made the US a technological powerhouse. And more and more people are being radicalized by it, and the alarming number of apologists, every day.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone peacefully protesting is not a "lawbreaker". The quote you provided only refers to criminals. In fact "the right of the people peaceably to assemble" is explicitly allowed in the Constitution. Please show me where he said peaceful protestors should have force used upon them.

When he said send in the military to do "an overwhelming show of force". The military isn't going to walk through the crowd picking out the few people smashing windows or throwing bottles. That would not be an OVERWHELMING SHOW OF FORCE. They would march on the crowds, and almost inevitably use lethal force on them. Even if the target is only the ones throwing bottles or smashing windows, the military cannot and woul…

So whn you said "He called for using military force against civil rights activists" that was not actually accurate? Cotton only said against lawbreakers right?

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of intellectual progress do you think we're missing out on? I see people getting "cancelled" (aka facing consequences) for things like sexual misconduct / abusive behavior. For anti trans views. For fascistic ideas, or storming the capital to re-instate a democratically defeated politician. Are any of these places where the next big leap in intellectual progress is going to come from?

You’re blurring away the gap between behavior and ideas. Sexual misconduct and “anti trans” views are as incommensurable as musical scales and baseball bats.

I understand there is a difference. I’m saying I think the ideas being cancelled are actually just the kind of garbage ideas that don’t have merit but do cause harm. Do you think that anti-trans beliefs are going to be a source of intellectual progress? Because i’d argue that the deconstruction of the gender binary IS the kind of transformative idea that some people in this thread are saying is being stifled. Is the group of young people refusing to buy jk rowling’s next work the ones crushing an idea to maintain social order, or are they the iconoclasts breaking down the old ways with radical ideas? I’d say the latter, but...

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seemed like “we have progressed, therefore it’s okay to backslide and no one should criticize cancellation”. After all, no one here is arguing that the 1500s, 1600s, etc were the golden ages of speech.

I think it's presumptuous to assume "it's okay to backslide" was part of that comment. What/when are we backsliding from? There was never some 'golden age' where comments anathema to the culture at large wouldn't have consequences. Even the popular victims of cancel culture now have it better than the ones in the 1950s, say (i.e., Gina Carano may have been fired from one company, but that was because she persisted in…

> I think it's presumptuous to assume "it's okay to backslide" was part of that comment.

I wasn't assuming or presuming, I was asking.

> What/when are we backsliding from? There was never some 'golden age' where comments anathema to the culture at large wouldn't have consequences.

We're not just talking about comments that are "anathema to the culture at large", we're often talking about comments that offend only about 10% of the population. Things like "citing a celebrated academic's work on the efficacy of nonviolent protest" or "quoting a black man who wished more attention was paid to other issues in his community [besides police violence]" or "accidentally making the 'ok' gesture". With that out of the way, to answer your question more broadly, it has been rare in my life for people to be terminated even for quite controversial speech, and certainly not due to explicit pressure from large, often coordinated groups of strangers. If you were the public face of a company you were expected to steer clear of controversy, but ordinary people didn't need to fear a loss of income or access to healthcare.

The worst of it was during the height of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars when it was controversial to be seen as unpatriotic, but even then I think ordinary people were mostly insulated from the effects (i.e., it was "punching up"), the effects weren't especially chilling, and society quickly rallied around shared free-speech values and righted itself. For what it's worth, I don't think conservatives 15 years ago were morally better than today's woke progressives; rather, I think the difference is social media (notably, conservatives canceled Colin Kaepernick almost immediately after social media cancelation came into existence).

> It's called sensitivity, not censorship.

I didn't call it censorship?

> Pursuant to the article, I don't really consider it backsliding if authors are now having second thoughts about writing from cultural perspectives other than their own.

I've never found "ends justify the means" arguments to be very compelling, personally.

> And you may miss the mark, and there will be consequences

One problem with cancel culture is that there are consequences even if your speech is perfectly correct and moral, e.g., advocating for nonviolent protest. It turns out people with few scruples about canceling also tend to lack scruples about whom they target. And to be clear, "consequences" aren't "you've offended someone and now they won't speak with you"; rather, they're "you've offended someone and now they've rounded up a hundred people to harass your employer into firing you with the express purposes of making an example out of you for other would-be non-conformists".

> I would contend consequences now are the weakest they have ever been.

I strongly disagree. Worse by far than any time in my memory.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#376
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree that there are problems on both sides, but I don't see how your reasoning encourages "everyone realizing this fact and explicitly agreeing to some form of detente". On the contrary, progressives seem to see "the right has oppressed people" as a mandate to do everything they can to make war on the right and even moderate positions (because moderate positions are characterized as dog whistles that co…

GP comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26306326

So... your strategy to achieve detente is to inflame and justify hatred of people in rural areas? You're extrapolating a personal anecdote in order to stereotype millions of people. It's hard to see how that is anything but destructive.

I'm sorry that you've had to go through those experiences, but not everyone rural or Christian is like that, and it's very harmful to characterize them that way. It's not accurate to stereotype Christians as hateful any more than it's accurate to stereotype Muslims as supporting terrorism. They are extremely diverse groups with some truly bad subgroups, but also some good ones, and most subgroups are in-between. The extremes aren't representative of the group as a whole.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#377

> The 66-year-old said he was worried that less established authors were self-censoring by avoiding writing from certain viewpoints or including characters outside their immediate experiences. Speaking as an occasional author, this is a true statement...

honestly, if you aren't able to write an accurate perspective on something - I would rather see someone not try and write on something they don't know then make a half-assed attempt from info off the top of their head. at best they just write something inaccurate, at worse the perpetuate harmful preconceptions

not saying don't write about things only you have experience with, just do some research before

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not “just” about getting fired, but termination is the minimum required evidence to support the claim that criticizing Biden (for being insufficiently leftist) would put one’s career in jeopardy.

Did you not read the original article? There's a million and one ways your career can suffer without being fired. Passed up for promotion, not getting funding, not hired in the first place...

You're moving goal posts (and accusing me of not reading the article on top of that--that's an impressive feat of self-confidence!). You claimed that it would put your career at risk. Being passed up for a promotion isn't putting your career at risk. You still have a career after being passed up for a promotion. There are actually people whose careers are at risk--who get fired even--because leftists pressure their employers into firing them (I'm less interested in painting leftists in a bad light or otherwise risk a flame war; I only mention it because it's relevant).

But anyway, accepting the new position of the goal posts, can you demonstrate examples of people who were passed up for promotion. Of course it's harder to prove these things causally, but if it happens often enough to have a chilling effect it should surely be trivial to identify one-or-two cut and dry cases?

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#379

It's really sad that in the age of unrestricted access to information public discourse is self-restricting to avoid wrong-think and dissenting opinions. If you look at the history of intellectual progress, much of it was exactly due to unpopular opinions. Now by having one you're risking your entire career and sometimes more. This is truly the dark age of the information era.

Hardly so. There's ample evidence that the current is the greatest opportunity for dissenting thought and opinion to have massive reach without much consequence or effort. The idea that we're in a dark age of thought is purely rhetorical and only serves to frame a narrative that further amplifies ideas that would never had a chance to propagate before the information era. Furthermore, we are living in a time of such…

People like you are incredibly dishonest.

Yeah, people are just imagining the waves of deplatforming and online censorship, being fired from their jobs for dissenting from the orthodoxy.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of intellectual progress do you think we're missing out on? I see people getting "cancelled" (aka facing consequences) for things like sexual misconduct / abusive behavior. For anti trans views. For fascistic ideas, or storming the capital to re-instate a democratically defeated politician. Are any of these places where the next big leap in intellectual progress is going to come from?

MLK was hated by most and persecuted by the FBI as an evil communist because he spoke out against the war machine, and called for a radical revolution of values. Semmelweis was locked in a mental prison and beaten to death for suggesting that doctors should wash their hands. Socrates was sentenced to death for questioning the state. Jesus was crucified for challenging the established religious order. Giordano Bruno w…

You gave five examples of state violence to maintain existing social order. “Cancel culture” is not being done by the state.

I agree, ideas can cause upheaval, and there will be resistance to those ideas. But have you considered that your resistance to the idea of holding people to account for their actions and words might be a resistance to a social change?

I’ve heard a lot about cancel culture, but most of it has been rich successful people being deprived of continuing to be successful for something they have said or done that was actually harmful. The few examples of miscarriages of justice have not amounted to much other than a few lost sales and some clapbacks on social media. It feels like we’re doing an actually pretty good job at judging when to all-out-destroy someone (harvey weinstein) and when to just be critical (almost everyone else)

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