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Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?

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Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?

#61

Post by junon »

ronaldj wrote: post #59
yumraj wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, absolutely that is one, probably major factor. But that those people could even get there and do that was caused by the rise of frameworks and GC languages. A person no longer needed to: 1. understand how things worked, in many cases you could just do some tutorials and start producing things that kinda worked but underneath were a pile of garbage 2. No longer needed to worry about memory or optimization so wrot…

When I was a younger developer I used to believe things like this. There are tons of roles and different levels to fill. People come from all sorts of backgrounds. You shouldn't discount folks for following a different path. A passionate and curious developer can learn C, C++, Rust if/when they need to. I would also argue that in the front end world frameworks have vastly improved code quality and developer experienc…

I've been in the Node.js world for 10, and web dev world for almost 20, years now.

There are now hundreds of build systems, most of which copy the other ones but still aren't compatible with each other.

There are hundreds of frameworks spewing out security issues all over the ecosystem.

React and Vue don't enforce anything and certainly aren't the most stable of the selection of frameworks that exist. At least for React, a significant amount of money was dumped into it by a large, privacy invading and unethical corporation, which ultimately made it "popular". Facebook used it so it MUST be good, right?

None of it is amazing; it's quite sad. The fact that we're locked into a small set of browsers, none of which can be reproduced or hacked on in any meaningful way aside from those dedicated to them. The fact we can't create our own browsers without wading through an ocean of specs.

It's ludicrous. How anyone can say "it's amazing" in a positive connotation astounds me.

Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?

#62

Post by junon »

rramadass wrote: post #56
junon wrote: post #50

I'm in the camp that would answer "yes" to your question. For me, it went like this: - The nerds did their nerd shit in the garage. Nobody saw them. - Then the nerds figured out how to revamp many business processes with computers. - Then those businesses needed more of that, so they started hiring other nerds. - Not too many nerds existed because they're nerds and who wants to be a nerd? So therefore demand was high…

I don't know whether to laugh or to cry ! This is so true. Too many people with not enough background/experience, the dumbing down of programming to appeal to the masses (hey, just use this framework and call this api), the explosion in complexity of everything because apparently all solutions have be at Google scale, babel of languages/tools etc. etc. The joy of understanding/mastery/comprehension is gone.

The last sentence is especially true. I hate writing code most days, now. There's nothing interesting about the problems most companies are trying to solve, for example.

Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?

#63

Post by yesenadam »

nindalf wrote: post #26

Here are some quotes of people complaining about "youngsters these days". 1. The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unlady…

> #1 was written in the 13th century, #2 in the 5th century BC and #3 in the 8th century BC.

Not true. These all appear to be fake quotes. Apparently #1 are not words of Peter the Hermit, #2 not words of Socrates/Plato, #3 not found in Hesiod.

#2 seems to be from 1907.[0] There are claims on the web it's a paraphrase of a speech of Justice in Aristophanes' comedy The Clouds[1], but I don't see much resemblance.

This[2] page contains all 3 quotes, #2 prefaced by "You may have seen this quote, often (apparently inaccurately) attributed to Socrates", then claims the other two quotes are real. But he links to a 2004 discussion page[3], which under quote #1 says "It should be noted that the attribution of this quote to Peter the Hermit is as shaky as the attribution of the other quote to Socrates."

[0] https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/

[1] http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:19...

[2] https://nickfalkner.com/2013/04/21/the-kids-are-alright-with...

[3] http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=398104

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Socrates#Misattributed

Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?

#64

Post by ronaldj »

junon wrote: post #61
ronaldj wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a younger developer I used to believe things like this. There are tons of roles and different levels to fill. People come from all sorts of backgrounds. You shouldn't discount folks for following a different path. A passionate and curious developer can learn C, C++, Rust if/when they need to. I would also argue that in the front end world frameworks have vastly improved code quality and developer experienc…

I've been in the Node.js world for 10, and web dev world for almost 20, years now. There are now hundreds of build systems, most of which copy the other ones but still aren't compatible with each other. There are hundreds of frameworks spewing out security issues all over the ecosystem. React and Vue don't enforce anything and certainly aren't the most stable of the selection of frameworks that exist. At least for Re…

I'm not saying things are the best I think they can be. I'm saying the progress is amazing and overall has been positive.

If someone were to make you an offer to build a complex web app right now using current tooling vs traveling back in time to 2010 and building it using 2010 tooling, would you actually choose to go back to 2010?

Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?

#65

Post by rramadass »

abernard1 wrote: post #29

Yes. Average code quality is objectively worse than it used to be, and there is an objective reason why. The barrier to entry is much lower. In 1995, getting a C++ program compiled, tested, shrink wrapped and shipped (in waterfall fashion) required a lot more work. The "survivor" software you bought on your floppy disk or CD-ROM at the store meant it was high enough quality to jump through all those hoops. Some of th…

>The barrier to entry is much lower

Very true and i blame it entirely on the rise of "Web Programming". When it started off with HTML/CSS, a whole lot of non-programmers jumped into the industry and thus a lot of frameworks/libraries added layers of abstractions to cater to them to make it "as simple as possible" to write a "Web App". But then things only got more complex with the need to recreate desktop app experience within a browser and the explosion of mobile devices. The non-programmers were now out of their depth but since the software market had expanded exponentially they "upgraded" their skills and continued churning out "code" with predictable results.

Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?

#66

Post by aprdm »

rramadass wrote: post #56
junon wrote: post #50

I'm in the camp that would answer "yes" to your question. For me, it went like this: - The nerds did their nerd shit in the garage. Nobody saw them. - Then the nerds figured out how to revamp many business processes with computers. - Then those businesses needed more of that, so they started hiring other nerds. - Not too many nerds existed because they're nerds and who wants to be a nerd? So therefore demand was high…

I don't know whether to laugh or to cry ! This is so true. Too many people with not enough background/experience, the dumbing down of programming to appeal to the masses (hey, just use this framework and call this api), the explosion in complexity of everything because apparently all solutions have be at Google scale, babel of languages/tools etc. etc. The joy of understanding/mastery/comprehension is gone.

> The joy of understanding/mastery/comprehension is gone.

Yes, and is also not rewarded. Deeply understanding a problem has much less career value than job hopping + leet code practice.

We're creating a generation of senior developers who do not understand problems deeply. (And are also "senior" within 1-2 years...)

Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?

#67

Post by junon »

ronaldj wrote: post #64
junon wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been in the Node.js world for 10, and web dev world for almost 20, years now. There are now hundreds of build systems, most of which copy the other ones but still aren't compatible with each other. There are hundreds of frameworks spewing out security issues all over the ecosystem. React and Vue don't enforce anything and certainly aren't the most stable of the selection of frameworks that exist. At least for Re…

I'm not saying things are the best I think they can be. I'm saying the progress is amazing and overall has been positive. If someone were to make you an offer to build a complex web app right now using current tooling vs traveling back in time to 2010 and building it using 2010 tooling, would you actually choose to go back to 2010?

A resounding "YES".

Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?

#68

Post by retox »

Maybe some of the problems today are because of the ability to fix code after release much more easily. If you wanted to ship something on a set of floppies or a CD you had to be pretty confident it worked unless you wanted to deal with a costly patching process.

Now you can push a hot fix or day 1 patch almost immediately, and in the case of some software like games, actually prevent people from using the old version, leading to software being released that has known issues. Obviously with web based applications the fix deployment is completely transparent to the users, making the cost of deploying a fix almost zero.

Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?

#69

Post by potta_coffee »

junon wrote: post #50

I'm in the camp that would answer "yes" to your question. For me, it went like this: - The nerds did their nerd shit in the garage. Nobody saw them. - Then the nerds figured out how to revamp many business processes with computers. - Then those businesses needed more of that, so they started hiring other nerds. - Not too many nerds existed because they're nerds and who wants to be a nerd? So therefore demand was high…

How is it that the smartest and most effective programmer that I've worked with was a boot camp grad? How is it that I've worked with programmers that have master's degrees from reputable universities that simply can't code? I think it's true that salaries definitely have had an effect, but there's also the fact that the industry has grown exponentially, and the employees have to come from somewhere. Make the pool bigger and you're going to have more bad programmers among the good ones.

Currently I'm working with a team and it's a mixed bag, some of the guys are good and some are terrible but they're all well-educated.

Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?

#70

Post by potta_coffee »

jpgvm wrote: post #2

I find this varies by ecosystem. Certain ecosystems have incredibly high quality libraries on average. However ecosystems also vary in their breadth and quantity of available libraries also so that may play into it. I find Rust and Perl to both have very high quality libraries available. JVM/Java ecosystem has a huge number of libraries and some extremely high quality ones but also a massive number of abandoned or lo…

Regardless of ecosystem, I think it's important to choose packages carefully. Python may have some trash libraries but there are also some very stable and trustworthy ones. I've used Python long enough that I have a selection of libraries I know and use. Javascript / NPM land has been a lot more difficult for me. I've been writing Go a lot lately and it's a breath of fresh air in that I rarely need packages outside of the standard library, which means I simply don't need to think about dependencies very often. That might change if the type of projects I'm working changes.
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