I've been in this game since 1998 and I've seen much across the years. Back in the late 90s/early 00s, people started to get a little more sloppy due to less constraints on HW/SW (RAM, etc.). These days it seems people pay less attention to what makes a good programmer and more on the language or framework du jour. Very few people take the time to master not just a language but good habits. They flit from language to language and framework to framework. A good programmer with just a few years of experience should be able to pick up any language within reason. Having said this, going from JavaScript to C++ or Python might be a challenge if all you've ever done is front end work. Concepts like mutable/immutable, etc. can be challenging if you've never dealt with them. Constant learning, constant challenges on and off the clock, always be curious. Too many bootcamps now that don't teach anything other than getting people out the door. Notice that most of these bootcamps are for front end work. There is no way you are going to see a bootcamp cranking out a systems programmer in a few months--there is simply too much to know about how the underlying systems work together (HW/SW). A friend years ago lamented the very same thing he went through as a sysadmin with bootcamps cranking out "paper tiger" MCSEs who didn't know the first thing about running a server or setting up a domain controller or print server.
Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?
51–60 of 86 posts
Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?
#52I've been in this game since 1998 and I've seen much across the years. Back in the late 90s/early 00s, people started to get a little more sloppy due to less constraints on HW/SW (RAM, etc.). These days it seems people pay less attention to what makes a good programmer and more on the language or framework du jour. Very few people take the time to master not just a language but good habits. They flit from language to…
> Concepts like mutable/immutable
I'm curious, have you used React or Immutable.js? As the latter's name suggests, both heavily rely on concepts of immutability.
Just sounds like you're FE-bashing like people on the internet love to do.
Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?
#53While it is true that a dilution of the field has some impact on quality, I think there's other reasons too.
- We routinely depend on higher and higher level abstractions. These abstractions almost never cover 100% of the usecases you could imagine, but that doesn't mean they still won't get used inappropriately for a while.
- Corporate software is often subject to the technical equivalent of a pump and dump. The kind of situation where a developer wants to open source something but the company isn't really passionate about having them finish all of the features, only the ones that are pertinent to them.
- Companies are routinely understaffed, possibly by design. When I first started programming I heard all about programmers working in teams to accomplish things. When you don't have the option to pair on tough problems that means tough problems get a singular perspective.
Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?
#54I've been in this game since 1998 and I've seen much across the years. Back in the late 90s/early 00s, people started to get a little more sloppy due to less constraints on HW/SW (RAM, etc.). These days it seems people pay less attention to what makes a good programmer and more on the language or framework du jour. Very few people take the time to master not just a language but good habits. They flit from language to…
> Concepts like mutable/immutable I'm curious, have you used React or Immutable.js? As the latter's name suggests, both heavily rely on concepts of immutability. Just sounds like you're FE-bashing like people on the internet love to do.
Sorry I may have come across as bashing; this was not my intent. I have nothing against FE work, as I do both myself. I work in a small two-man shop and I have to do a little of everything, including sysadmin stuff, which I don't really like, but it keeps me up to date.
Editing to add, no, I don't work with React. I primarily live in Python, Bash, and PowerShell in a mixed Linux/Windows environment. Starting to do more with IoT for sensors, etc. and this is where things like Python shine.
Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Concepts like mutable/immutable I'm curious, have you used React or Immutable.js? As the latter's name suggests, both heavily rely on concepts of immutability. Just sounds like you're FE-bashing like people on the internet love to do.
Sorry I may have come across as bashing; this was not my intent. I have nothing against FE work, as I do both myself. I work in a small two-man shop and I have to do a little of everything, including sysadmin stuff, which I don't really like, but it keeps me up to date. Editing to add, no, I don't work with React. I primarily live in Python, Bash, and PowerShell in a mixed Linux/Windows environment. Starting to do mo…
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Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?
#56I'm in the camp that would answer "yes" to your question. For me, it went like this: - The nerds did their nerd shit in the garage. Nobody saw them. - Then the nerds figured out how to revamp many business processes with computers. - Then those businesses needed more of that, so they started hiring other nerds. - Not too many nerds existed because they're nerds and who wants to be a nerd? So therefore demand was high…
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry ! This is so true. Too many people with not enough background/experience, the dumbing down of programming to appeal to the masses (hey, just use this framework and call this api), the explosion in complexity of everything because apparently all solutions have be at Google scale, babel of languages/tools etc. etc. The joy of understanding/mastery/comprehension is gone.
Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?
#57I'm in the camp that would answer "yes" to your question. For me, it went like this: - The nerds did their nerd shit in the garage. Nobody saw them. - Then the nerds figured out how to revamp many business processes with computers. - Then those businesses needed more of that, so they started hiring other nerds. - Not too many nerds existed because they're nerds and who wants to be a nerd? So therefore demand was high…
Yes, absolutely that is one, probably major factor.
But that those people could even get there and do that was caused by the rise of frameworks and GC languages.
A person no longer needed to:
1. understand how things worked, in many cases you could just do some tutorials and start producing things that kinda worked but underneath were a pile of garbage
2. No longer needed to worry about memory or optimization so wrote more pile of garbage
I'm not saying we want to go back there, but if everyone had to write C, C++, Rust, or one of the functional languages:
1. We'd have a lot fewer people in the industry
2. Overall quality of code would be higher, though I'm sure more C/C++ would have led to more memory and security issues also or perhaps not..
Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Concepts like mutable/immutable I'm curious, have you used React or Immutable.js? As the latter's name suggests, both heavily rely on concepts of immutability. Just sounds like you're FE-bashing like people on the internet love to do.
Sorry I may have come across as bashing; this was not my intent. I have nothing against FE work, as I do both myself. I work in a small two-man shop and I have to do a little of everything, including sysadmin stuff, which I don't really like, but it keeps me up to date. Editing to add, no, I don't work with React. I primarily live in Python, Bash, and PowerShell in a mixed Linux/Windows environment. Starting to do mo…
It's interesting how you have such strong opinions about JS developers when you're not even familiar with the most popular tools that are available today... I always find it weird how people are like that.
Especially mentioning JS and then saying immutability is a problem... Immutability is a core concept in React, so you couldn't be more wrong honestly.
Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?
#59I'm in the camp that would answer "yes" to your question. For me, it went like this: - The nerds did their nerd shit in the garage. Nobody saw them. - Then the nerds figured out how to revamp many business processes with computers. - Then those businesses needed more of that, so they started hiring other nerds. - Not too many nerds existed because they're nerds and who wants to be a nerd? So therefore demand was high…
Yes, absolutely that is one, probably major factor. But that those people could even get there and do that was caused by the rise of frameworks and GC languages. A person no longer needed to: 1. understand how things worked, in many cases you could just do some tutorials and start producing things that kinda worked but underneath were a pile of garbage 2. No longer needed to worry about memory or optimization so wrot…
When I was a younger developer I used to believe things like this. There are tons of roles and different levels to fill. People come from all sorts of backgrounds. You shouldn't discount folks for following a different path. A passionate and curious developer can learn C, C++, Rust if/when they need to.
I would also argue that in the front end world frameworks have vastly improved code quality and developer experience. 10 years ago every team had their own homegrown build system, there were no libraries for type checking, you had write code or conditionals for the lowest version browser you support. Oh and app structure? Every team did something different.
Compare that to now: We have a handful of large open source build systems, so if you jump teams/projects there is consistency. We have things like TypeScript and Flow. We have Babel, which can transpile modern JavaScript in to older versions of the language, so you can support older browsers without even thinking about it. Finally, we have frameworks like React and Vue, which enforce a component based architecture. This is great because you can jump between different projects and for the most part will find code organized in the same way. All of this is amazing.
Re: Ask HN: Is average code getting worse?
#60I'm in the camp that would answer "yes" to your question. For me, it went like this: - The nerds did their nerd shit in the garage. Nobody saw them. - Then the nerds figured out how to revamp many business processes with computers. - Then those businesses needed more of that, so they started hiring other nerds. - Not too many nerds existed because they're nerds and who wants to be a nerd? So therefore demand was high…
Yes, absolutely that is one, probably major factor. But that those people could even get there and do that was caused by the rise of frameworks and GC languages. A person no longer needed to: 1. understand how things worked, in many cases you could just do some tutorials and start producing things that kinda worked but underneath were a pile of garbage 2. No longer needed to worry about memory or optimization so wrot…
I agree entirely.