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On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

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Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#691

Post by idrios »

35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #515
dahfizz wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some definition of "deserving", I would agree. Certainly, everyone should have the tools and opportunities they need to build the life they want. Society has limited resources. Until we manage the post-scarcity utopia, I would prefer my tax dollars go to someone who will use them to build a better life.

This is a lie. The world has enough resources to feed, clothe, and house everyone. We've chose to build a system that does not. Perhaps you find that defensible, perhaps you find that appalling, but argue that position, not one that isn't true.

This statement reads to me the same as something like "Computers have the resources to find the cure for cancer, but we've chosen not to find that cure." You're using the word "chosen" as if we know how to build the system you're describing. Our understanding of technology is sufficiently advanced to build a system that feeds, clothes and houses everyone, but our understanding of social sciences is not there yet.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#692

Post by covidthrow »

whimsicalism wrote: post #514
dahfizz wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some definition of "deserving", I would agree. Certainly, everyone should have the tools and opportunities they need to build the life they want. Society has limited resources. Until we manage the post-scarcity utopia, I would prefer my tax dollars go to someone who will use them to build a better life.

Half of all private wealth is inherited, not earned through work, by the wealthiest 5% of households. In that context, why focus on giving small portions of wealth to those in poverty (even if they aren't working as hard as you think they ought to)?

If one were to redistribute all of the top 5%'s wealth at once:

- it wouldn't be liquid, so you'd be giving part ownership in assets

- the value would be slightly less than median yearly income per recipient. At a pretty sizeable 5% average return, the individuals would net about $2,000 a year.

- if they chose to sell the assets, they would end up with about one year's median income and then it's gone

I'm not sure how much money you think lives up at the top, but redistributing it is not sustainable, and it's certainly not enough to magically pull everyone out of poverty indefinitely. (Or even for very long, at that.)

There are a ton of reasonable discussions to be had about imbalanced power structures between socioeconomic groups, but this whole redistribution thing is just a fantasy.

One can look at a million/billionaire and say, "oh, this person has 50 cars. That's way too many cars for one person to have! Let's give them away to people who actually need cars!" So you seize them and give them away—along with the other 12,000 super wealthy people that own 50 or more cars—and then you have... 200,000 people who still don't have cars.

For groups that preach so frequently about global and ecological sustainability, there's a disturbing blind spot for economic sustainability. I think that's more a feature of envy than responsibility, unfortunately.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#693

Post by zigzaggy »

throwaway-0987 wrote: post #174

Throwaway because I don't want my co-workers to know. I was poor. My father left home when I was a kid in middle school. My mom worked part time cleaning houses and left us when she found a new husband. I dropped out of high-school in the 9th grade and went to work. Low paying jobs. I lived with my aunt on the bad side of town. Fast-forward 35 years. Today, I make about 200K per year. I got a GED, went to trade schoo…

I'm glad to hear you made it. I have a similar story, except mine involves health problems and homelessness in adulthood. I "made it" from living on the streets in Austin TX to being a senior manager at a big company. It's SO HARD to dig yourself out of that, and I just wanted to say GOOD JOB!

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#694

Post by exolymph »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #197
marcusverus wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not quite sure why it works this way. It works this way because people are, rationally, more interested in their own physical safety than they are in the feelings of strangers. Anecdote: I was in San Francisco a few years back. There were homeless folks everywhere. Some were nice, even chatty. We felt at ease even when walking through areas that were full of homeless folks. But a couple of days into our trip, a…

> Is that fair to the average homeless person, who is perfectly normal, just down on their luck? This is not an accurate description of the average homeless person.

The point is, that doesn't matter. It only takes one unhinged person to fuck up your day.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#695

Post by robotnikman »

busterarm wrote: post #216
throwaway-0987 wrote: post #174

Throwaway because I don't want my co-workers to know. I was poor. My father left home when I was a kid in middle school. My mom worked part time cleaning houses and left us when she found a new husband. I dropped out of high-school in the 9th grade and went to work. Low paying jobs. I lived with my aunt on the bad side of town. Fast-forward 35 years. Today, I make about 200K per year. I got a GED, went to trade schoo…

Fellow former-poor here. It's the kind of thing that casts a shadow over your whole life. And in this industry, nobody is comfortable talking about it. Most of the people I work with graduated from school as guaranteed millionaires. I hear things get said by people that are so far from the orbit of my reality and I cringe. Reading the article was really eye opening for me because I hadn't thought of all of the life s…

As someone who also grew up in a poorer family I can relate as well, both the disconnect from people in the industry I've talked to and the skills I picked up growing up.

My dad had a bunch of tools growing up which he used to do household repairs and repairs on the cars, I remember for the longest time my parents driving an old station wagon with a lot of duct tape holding things together or covering leaks and the air conditioning not working.

I still try to repair things on my own if I can, while some people I know just go hire someone on Handy or something to fix things for them.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#696

Post by overlords »

criticaljudge wrote: post #622
whimsicalism wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half of all private wealth is inherited, not earned through work, by the wealthiest 5% of households. In that context, why focus on giving small portions of wealth to those in poverty (even if they aren't working as hard as you think they ought to)?

The notion that children don't deserve the spoils of their parents is really crazy to me. Parents work so that they can give their children a better life. Heck, they even choose their partners to maximize odds for a better life for their offspring (wealth, good genes, and so on - it does not even depend on capitalism). To take that away from people is truly dehumanizing, but sounds like a typical socialist scheme (de…

1 rich person saving his money so his 3 children never have to work is bad for the economy.

It's better the 1 rich person is forced to consume that in his lifetime. By doing so that money is redistributed back to the economy, and his 3 kids are also productive.

In scenario 1 only 1 out 4 people work. In scenario 2, 4 out of 4 people work.

Also - it's hypocritical for 'pull yourself by your bootstraps' for children born poor, and 'guaranteed basic income' for children born rich. That is more dehumanizing than not being allowed to pass off inheritance.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#697

Post by dahfizz »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #667
covidthrow wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely if a rapist deserves to be fed, so does an innocent person who can't find a job? The State actively deprived the rapist of their ability to act autonomously to care for themselves, so they are obligated to do so on their behalf. The State (typically) does not actively deprive an innocent person who can't find a job of their autonomy. (There are some arguable scenarios in which they do, however, such as exces…

The state could put the same deal to the rapist as it does to everyone else: work if you want to eat. It does not. Calling the unemployed lazy is a lie untill you offered them a job and they refused.

> The state could put the same deal to the rapist as it does to everyone else: work if you want to eat. It does not.

And you would be okay with that? You're advocating for actual slavery of inmates?

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#698

Post by dahfizz »

mcguire wrote: post #663
xyzzyz wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your friend Steve comes to you to "borrow" $100 (that he'll never return), because he's short on rent, and he blew last of his cash on hookers and booze, it seems pretty reasonable and perfectly morally justified to either refuse outright, or condition your help on requirement that Steve gets a job, and quits his hookers and booze habit. Certainly, nobody would ever suggest that you have any obligation to enable…

In your mind, is blowing the "last of his cash on hookers and booze" the median behavior of people who are short on rent?

In your mind, does that description fit absolutely nobody who is short on rent?

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#699

Post by carapace »

sethammons wrote: post #163

Queue my first truck. My uncle gave it to me. S-15. The bench seat didn’t lock, it slid forward and back when breaking or accelerating. Hard left hand turn and the keys would fly from the ignition and land on tue floorboard of the passenger seat (this did not turn off the truck). During the same hard left, some electrical thing would connect or un-short and my radio would temporarily turn on until the end of the turn…

( s/Queue/Cue/ )

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#700

Post by eecc »

lasfter wrote: post #637
xyzzyz wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your friend Steve comes to you to "borrow" $100 (that he'll never return), because he's short on rent, and he blew last of his cash on hookers and booze, it seems pretty reasonable and perfectly morally justified to either refuse outright, or condition your help on requirement that Steve gets a job, and quits his hookers and booze habit. Certainly, nobody would ever suggest that you have any obligation to enable…

Because some of the money also goes to Sally who genuinely needs help. I don't understand how you can be okay with people starving or working themselves to death to survive and provide for their families, just because others do things you disapprove of. You're also ignoring the fact that someone who is eligible for this kind of social security and spends it all on booze is probably unwell and needs treatment for addi…

well said, thank you.
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