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Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

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Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#301

Post by heterodoxxed »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #287
heterodoxxed wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was responding to this: | This is truly the dark age of the information era. and this: | popular platforms are pressured to not do business with you Both implies greater forces at play than a small, small minority of voices on twitter making authors feel bad. Social media gave everyone a voice, what I don't understand is why anyone is surprised that there are vocal micro-minorities like this. Years ago, they wrote…

"| She did, likely after she was told what would happen otherwise. Do you have any evidence of this or are you just saying it? " If you are asking if I have inside information and maybe personal email between author and medium. I do not. It would be odd if I did. What I do have, however, is rather vivid memories of the same kind of idiocy working in practice in the old country, the only difference being that it was d…

| This is truly the dark age of the information era.

I think statements like this are hysterical and ahistorical. The amount of actual censorship and the way moral panics occurred throughout history make twitter dogpiling look absolutely quaint in comparison.

I don't disagree with Kazuo Ishiguro one bit, but I think all it means is that authors need to get thicker skin, because unlike the past, they can read their readers opinions.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#302

Post by xirbeosbwo1234 »

wrycoder wrote: post #219
robotresearcher wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fox News. They regularly have people on expressing minority views that directly contest facts accepted by the majority of the US and the world.

There is a movement, extending even to Congress, to take Fox News off the air, or to have ISPs block it.

Which will obviously go precisely nowhere. Maybe they are a handful of people in Congress saying that, but it will never come anywhere near being law and even if it did it would be struck down immediately.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#303

Post by dash2 »

hannasanarion wrote: post #247
kradeelav wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just this past weekend a disabled animator was blacklisted from the industry because an ex-friend objected to their NSFW drawings on a twitter handle (completely separate from their professional handle). The number of death threats were also an immense psychological toll, and a bit more than just "being yelled at" (I am open to the fact there is a fuzzy continuum between the two). Regardless - "some companies won't w…

Are you suggesting that blacklists are a new phenomenon? "cancel culture" has always existed. The only thing that is changing is that who is "cancelled" is no longer chosen by TV producers and news editors (ie, white men), but democratically by self-directed popular discourse. In 2003 the Dixie Chicks said at a show in london, "We don't want this war, we're ashamed the President of the United States is from Texas". I…

I don't think anyone claimed that what happened to the Dixie Chicks was OK. Also, it sounds as if you think that cancellation is better if it's democratic. If so, you need to address the 150-year old argument made by Mill, that democratic popular opinion can be particularly oppressive and dangerous to minority viewpoints:

"Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority was at first, and is still vulgarly, held in dread, chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities. But reflecting persons perceived that when society is itself the tyrant — society collectively, over the separate individuals who compose it — its means of tyrannizing are not restricted to the acts which it may do by the hands of its political functionaries. Society can and does execute its own mandates: and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practises a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself."

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#304

Post by loveistheanswer »

kennywinker wrote: post #64
bitcharmer wrote: post #5

It's really sad that in the age of unrestricted access to information public discourse is self-restricting to avoid wrong-think and dissenting opinions. If you look at the history of intellectual progress, much of it was exactly due to unpopular opinions. Now by having one you're risking your entire career and sometimes more. This is truly the dark age of the information era.

What kind of intellectual progress do you think we're missing out on? I see people getting "cancelled" (aka facing consequences) for things like sexual misconduct / abusive behavior. For anti trans views. For fascistic ideas, or storming the capital to re-instate a democratically defeated politician. Are any of these places where the next big leap in intellectual progress is going to come from?

MLK was hated by most and persecuted by the FBI as an evil communist because he spoke out against the war machine, and called for a radical revolution of values.

Semmelweis was locked in a mental prison and beaten to death for suggesting that doctors should wash their hands.

Socrates was sentenced to death for questioning the state.

Jesus was crucified for challenging the established religious order.

Giordano Bruno was burnt at the stake for suggesting that the stars in the night sky were just like our sun, with their own planets in orbit.

>Are any of these places where the next big leap in intellectual progress is going to come from?

Iconoclastic ideas, whether erroneous or true, are always deeply offensive to society at large, and humanity always viciously seeks to silence them with the popular approval of the status quo.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#305

Post by [deleted] »

dragonwriter wrote: post #286
refenestrator wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was including Sanders and any Biden skeptic as "heretical liberals" -- no disagreement from me there.

It's important to understand that while the Right in America uses “liberal” to encompass everything to their left, the American Left (in line with much of the world outside the US, which did so longer) tends to use it specifically for a center-to-center-right pro-capitalist position roughly coextensive with neoliberalism; the (decreasingly, but still) dominant centrist wing of the Democratic Party is “liberal”, but n…

[deleted]

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#306

Post by sudosysgen »

dragonwriter wrote: post #286
refenestrator wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was including Sanders and any Biden skeptic as "heretical liberals" -- no disagreement from me there.

It's important to understand that while the Right in America uses “liberal” to encompass everything to their left, the American Left (in line with much of the world outside the US, which did so longer) tends to use it specifically for a center-to-center-right pro-capitalist position roughly coextensive with neoliberalism; the (decreasingly, but still) dominant centrist wing of the Democratic Party is “liberal”, but n…

Indeed. Liberalism is the ideology according to which negative rights prime over everything, the rights to property are the most important, and freedom of association is paramount.

Leftism emerged as sociology critiqued the idealist liberal notions for their ignorance of real-word effects due to material reality on the actual freedom and oppressive social structures that strict classical liberalism creates.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#307

Post by dragonwriter »

runawaybottle wrote: post #35
BitwiseFool wrote: post #14

I genuinely wonder what cancel culture is going to look like in the next 5-10 years and beyond. Just about everyone I speak to about the subject agrees that cancel culture is bad but very few people seem willing to confront it. I sense that people hope the rest of society will come to its senses and we all stop being so judgemental. But as much as I loathe cancel culture and it's chilling effects on the free exchange…

Cancel culture scared the ever living shit out of everyone, even everyday people. Whether you like it or not, it got every male in the workplace to not even breathe in the direction of women you work with. The movement permeated through normal life fast . It was extremely efficient in bringing forth the necessary changes. I have no problem with using the chainsaw as needed, but we need to careful about when we use it…

> Cancel culture scared the ever living shit out of everyone, even everyday people.

No, I don't think it did, to “everyone”. I think the degree of effect varies a lot, with the two main driving factors being (1) preexisting behavior, and (2) sources of information.

> Whether you like it or not, it got every male in the workplace to not even breathe in the direction of women you work with.

As an employee male, it's had about zero impact on how I relate to women, at work or in other contexts. I don't think I'm alone.

> The movement permeated through normal life fast.

I don't think this is any more true than when this complaint started to be made (with “political correctness” in place of “cancel culture”) in the 1980s, or when it saw another resurgence with “sexual harassment” (often with sneer quotes in writing, or just a plain sneer when spoken) in the 1990s.

> It was extremely efficient in bringing forth the necessary changes.

I think that very much remains to be seen, just as with the previous rounds.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#308

Post by sudosysgen »

solosoyokaze wrote: post #300
sudosysgen wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. But there is a lot of leftist infighting, especially between MLs, Anarchists, LibSocs, DemSocs, AnComs, etc... And there is also of neoliberals that pretend to be leftist, yes, so called "Radlibs". Then there are leftists that accuse other leftists that aren't of their same brand of being liberals, for example MLs calling anarchists liberals because they admit markets, or anarchists calling MLs capi…

I don't totally disagree with you, but the leftist infighting is of a very different nature than left vs. the establishment. For one, those on the left don't actually have the power to cancel each other. The platforms are owned by the neo-liberals, which direct the canceling through who they allow to speak their mind and who they don't. > And there is also of neoliberals that pretend to be leftist, yes, so called "Ra…

Agreed. Leftists don't actually have the power over the media to cancel anyone these days, it's overwhelmingly done by radlibs.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#309

Post by inglor_cz »

heterodoxxed wrote: post #266
inglor_cz wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chiming in from a country that had some classic show trials in the 50s (Czech Republic): the ultimate goal of the show trial was to get the indicted to self-confess and ask for a punishment themselves, in front of the public. Cancel culture does not have the (physical) death penalty, only a possibly social one, but the impulse seems similar. Once you are put on the show trial, you are expected to grovel, beg, repudia…

Don't you think that's just a little bit hysterical, comparing a minority of people complaining on twitter to a government show trial?

If they can get you ostracized socially (fired from a job, blacklisted in an industry), that is not a small punishment.

Plus, what interests me is the underlying mentality. It seems to be similar. It only does not have enough power right now, fortunately.

But the idea of destroying the heretic in maximal possible extent seems to be a fairly consistent common denominator. It is actually useful to know that it is still present in contemporary population; it means that if enough things go wrong and that faction gains power, you will see similar results once again.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#310

Post by Nasrudith »

SignalNotSecure wrote: post #264
Nasrudith wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is keeping you from opening up your own shocksites right now? I think it is more cultural zeitgeist - the generation involved with it largely grew out of it and the younger ones don't have the same sort of "culture" to reoccur in the same way. It isn't something you would want to boast about running and would have people thinking ill of you but it doesn't really trigger outrage.

Younger generations don't use the web browser as their main source of entertainment. Their attention and energy has been siloed to the largest media platforms. They enjoy being serfs on the FAANG plantation.

So in otherwords the issue is they don't want your puppet show when there is TV. That isn't cancel culture any more than nobody showing up to my TEDx talk where I count to ten thousand.
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