Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear' • Hacker News Board

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#191

Post by throwawaygh » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #164

throwawaygh wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one upthread made this about political sides AFAICT every example in the article. I always assume that the contents of the article are upthread because I always assume people read the article before commenting :) Aside from the article, my impression is that "cancel culture" has a more specific meaning than you seem to prescribe. One on hand, we never called it "cancel culture" when a teacher is fired for being…

Naive.

Perhaps it is a bit naive to assume people read the article :).

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#192

Post by solosoyokaze » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

refenestrator wrote: post #175

RobLach wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly so. There's ample evidence that the current is the greatest opportunity for dissenting thought and opinion to have massive reach without much consequence or effort. The idea that we're in a dark age of thought is purely rhetorical and only serves to frame a narrative that further amplifies ideas that would never had a chance to propagate before the information era. Furthermore, we are living in a time of such…

What's interesting is that heretical liberals have the most to fear in this environment. MAGA people can't be cancelled, and it's a badge of honor if attempted. But well-meaning unorthodox liberals really have to watch themselves.

Leftists get canceled all the time (by liberals). Look at the censoring/smearing of Bernie Sanders and his supporters during the primary. Twitter bans leftist accounts all the time as well. Take a look at every VC in our industry and they espouse staunchly establishment neo-liberal policies. Calling Biden into question (which anyone on the left would do) is risking your career.

The focus is often on censoring those on the right (which does happen too), but those on the left may be the most censored.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#193

Post by bpodgursky » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #78

We're approaching Orwell's "Newspeak". - Idiot -> retarded -> special needs - Negro -> colored -> Black - Queer -> gay -> LGBTQ - Indian -> Amerind -> native american - Illegal immigrant -> undocumented worker - fat -> plus size - He/she -> they (singular) - bum -> homeless Using the words in the left column can get you and your writing attacked.

Actually "homeless" is not really current — it's 'unhoused' now.

"Undocumented" is also a bit passe, the current trend is to drop the "undocumented" part entirely, and just refer to all immigrants (legal or illegal) as "immigrants".

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#194

Post by throwawaygh » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

refenestrator wrote: post #154

throwawaygh wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't emulate it! Where in this thread do I justify or emulate? Please quote something from any of my posts that would give you the impression that I approve of "cancel culture". However, if people are genuinely concerned about chilling speech, then why are they spending so much effort to call out SJW in a tiny handful of big cities instead of raising hell about the overt and often legal discrimination that happens…

If you're going to hold yourself up as the more enlightened group, it creates a bit of an obligation to act that way. In my book at least.

> If you're going to hold yourself up as the more enlightened group, it creates a bit of an obligation to act that way. In my book at least.

I'm pretty sure this is exactly what I'm saying ;-)

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#195

Post by kennywinker » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

_-david-_ wrote: post #168

kennywinker wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He called for using military force against civil rights activists. Is this the kind of great intellectual leap forward the grandparent post was talking about? Because if you want to talk about cancelling things, using the military to crush and jail activism is cancelling things pretty hard.

He called on the use of force against people doing violence, not the peaceful protestors.

"One thing above all else will restore order to our streets: an overwhelming show of force to disperse, detain and ultimately deter lawbreakers."

Incited by "violence" (mostly property damage, some clashes with cops trying to box in and disperse non-violent protestors) - but calling for dispersal of everyone. Using the military to crush a civil rights movement

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#196

Post by jerf » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

refenestrator wrote: post #175

RobLach wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly so. There's ample evidence that the current is the greatest opportunity for dissenting thought and opinion to have massive reach without much consequence or effort. The idea that we're in a dark age of thought is purely rhetorical and only serves to frame a narrative that further amplifies ideas that would never had a chance to propagate before the information era. Furthermore, we are living in a time of such…

What's interesting is that heretical liberals have the most to fear in this environment. MAGA people can't be cancelled, and it's a badge of honor if attempted. But well-meaning unorthodox liberals really have to watch themselves.

Yes, one of the worst and most dangerous places to be is just outside the orthodoxy. This is not a comment about 2021; it is a historical pattern. Whether or not it's worse than being directly opposed to the orthodoxy is something I'd say changes between times and places, but there have definitely been times where its more dangerous to be just outside then full-on opposed. Those who are neither directly opposed, nor just outside, in the vast space remaining outside of those two particular points, quite often do just fine.

This is also a fractal observation, relative to the perspective of "orthodoxy" you are taking at the moment; within the directly opposed group, there is another dangerous place of just outside the opposed group's orthodoxy.

I'd contrast this with the common intuitive belief that by indicating your agreement with the orthodoxy in most other ways, you've somehow built up "credit" with which you can "afford" a deviation. I would observe that model does not match reality very often. There's a few relatively idealistic communities where that may work, but in general that is not how people work.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#197

Post by the_only_law » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

solosoyokaze wrote: post #192

refenestrator wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's interesting is that heretical liberals have the most to fear in this environment. MAGA people can't be cancelled, and it's a badge of honor if attempted. But well-meaning unorthodox liberals really have to watch themselves.

Leftists get canceled all the time (by liberals). Look at the censoring/smearing of Bernie Sanders and his supporters during the primary. Twitter bans leftist accounts all the time as well. Take a look at every VC in our industry and they espouse staunchly establishment neo-liberal policies. Calling Biden into question (which anyone on the left would do) is risking your career. The focus is often on censoring those o…

In fairness, leftists get cancelled by leftists. insert joke about leftist infighting here

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#198

Post by refenestrator » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

solosoyokaze wrote: post #192

refenestrator wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's interesting is that heretical liberals have the most to fear in this environment. MAGA people can't be cancelled, and it's a badge of honor if attempted. But well-meaning unorthodox liberals really have to watch themselves.

Leftists get canceled all the time (by liberals). Look at the censoring/smearing of Bernie Sanders and his supporters during the primary. Twitter bans leftist accounts all the time as well. Take a look at every VC in our industry and they espouse staunchly establishment neo-liberal policies. Calling Biden into question (which anyone on the left would do) is risking your career. The focus is often on censoring those o…

I was including Sanders and any Biden skeptic as "heretical liberals" -- no disagreement from me there.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#199

Post by hannasanarion » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #148

standardUser wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no era of Western history where unpopular opinions were more acceptable than today. In the past, dissenting opinions voiced loudly were often punished by blacklisting or excommunication or prison or death. Now, you get yelled at on Twitter and some companies won't work with you.

> There is no era of Western history where unpopular opinions were more acceptable than today. In the past, dissenting opinions voiced loudly were often punished by blacklisting or excommunication or prison or death. Granted, but what's the logic here? We ought to content ourselves with regression so long as no one is being imprisoned or killed? We want to progress, not regress . We don't want a conformist society, w…

The idea that "ideas compete and the best rise to the top" is completely utopian. Such a "free marketplace of ideas" has never existed and cannot exist, because attention is a limited resource, bias exists, and not all ideas are equally valid.

The argument exists as a cover for constant relitigating of ideas that by all rational measures have lost in the "marketplace of ideas" time and time again.

If every single astronomy journal ever released contained a segment arguing about the merits of geocentrism because a few wackos continue to demand their right to "free speech and open debate" (which in reality means: unlimited speaking time on somebody else's platform), there would be no room for new science amid all the repetitive debunking.

Some debates are settled. Geocentrism is wrong. Racism is wrong. The holocaust happened. Authoritarianism is bad. Facts exist.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#200

Post by threatofrain » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

kradeelav wrote: post #170

standardUser wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no era of Western history where unpopular opinions were more acceptable than today. In the past, dissenting opinions voiced loudly were often punished by blacklisting or excommunication or prison or death. Now, you get yelled at on Twitter and some companies won't work with you.

Just this past weekend a disabled animator was blacklisted from the industry because an ex-friend objected to their NSFW drawings on a twitter handle (completely separate from their professional handle). The number of death threats were also an immense psychological toll, and a bit more than just "being yelled at" (I am open to the fact there is a fuzzy continuum between the two). Regardless - "some companies won't w…

If people don't like you, whether justly or unjustly, then they don't like you. Try persuading people who have a choice to work with people they dislike.

The only way to stop this is enforcement with teeth.