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Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

bbc.com

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Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#281

Post by edbob »

throwawaygh wrote: post #232
c06n wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to feel to belong to "The Left" (whatever that is) precisely because it did not do these things. Now it does, and sees it even as a moral imperative to do so. I'm on the autism spectrum, as are many others around here. Social rules are hard in the best of times. Now they are impossible to follow, and breaking them is outright dangerous. But I can keep to myself, I guess I'll be fine.

I also find this trend on the left morally unfortunate, historically out-of-character, and strategically flawed. My point here is not to defend cancel culture, but rather to point out that something like it has always existed and still exists on the right. IMO the only solution is everyone realizing this fact and explicitly agreeing to some form of detente. I'm not holding my breath, but step zero is both sides reali…

I completely agree that there are problems on both sides, but I don't see how your reasoning encourages "everyone realizing this fact and explicitly agreeing to some form of detente". On the contrary, progressives seem to see "the right has oppressed people" as a mandate to do everything they can to make war on the right and even moderate positions (because moderate positions are characterized as dog whistles that conservatives hide behind, and the "fascist" "Nazi" right must not be given any potential cover no matter the cost). I really thought your posts were intentionally stoking this attitude, and I would never have guessed that you wanted detente if you hadn't explicitly said so.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#282

Post by icelancer »

tstrimple wrote: post #237
toomim wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blacklisting and excommunication are exactly what is happening today, but the difference is that it's much worse in a global world. In 200 BC, if you were excommunicated from a tribe, it would be horrible, but you could walk 20 miles and join another tribe that hasn't heard or bought into the ostracization. In 2021 AD, if you are excommunicated from an industry on the internet, there's nowhere else you can physically…

> In 2021 AD, if you are excommunicated from an industry on the internet, there's nowhere else you can physically go. The entire intellectual globe is connected online. Excommunication is now worse than it used to be -- it's global. When has this ever happened? There's lots of claims that people have been cancelled and can never work in their field again, but actual examples never seem to materialize.

Try being falsely accused of sexual assault (or similar), forced into a plea bargain due to trumped up charges (or hell, beat the charge and still be considered guilty because "believe women"), and having your name plastered all over the Internet - and then getting a job in anything remotely public-facing. I know two people personally who had their lives ruined as a result of the amplification effect of the Internet.

The companies don't have to believe you did anything wrong. They just have to fear that the mob might believe it and hurt their bottom line.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#283

Post by sudosysgen »

solosoyokaze wrote: post #279
sudosysgen wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insert joke along the lines of "every leftist is just a radlib except me"

Leftist actually does have meaning. Neo-liberalism is a right wing ideology built on imperialism and capitalism. To conflate the two is dishonest.

I agree with you. But there is a lot of leftist infighting, especially between MLs, Anarchists, LibSocs, DemSocs, AnComs, etc...

And there is also of neoliberals that pretend to be leftist, yes, so called "Radlibs".

Then there are leftists that accuse other leftists that aren't of their same brand of being liberals, for example MLs calling anarchists liberals because they admit markets, or anarchists calling MLs capitalists/liberals because of state capitalism and the DotP, and then MLs calling DemSocs liberals because they want to operate at least partiallty within "bourgeois democracy", etc...

It's a very North America thing, though.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#284

Post by Nasrudith »

jjk166 wrote: post #251

If you're not willing to stand by your opinion and face the consequences of sharing it, how important is your opinion really? Intellectual progress demands that ideas distasteful to the status quo must be openly discussable, but some stakes are necessary to keep those who have carefully thought out their positions and thus hold them with conviction from being drowned out by those who merely parrot ridiculous talking…

Ah yes Thomas Paine published nothing of worth because nobody took "Common Sense" seriously since they were anonymous leaflets....

Anominity has nothing to do with how well considered something is - there was an improved lower bound on 4Chan as a source and many publishing absolute nonsense under their real name as a lucrative careers.

There is no neccessity - only the whinging of those upset they arr no longer able to argue ad bacculum.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#285

Post by _-david-_ »

kennywinker wrote: post #195
_-david-_ wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He called on the use of force against people doing violence, not the peaceful protestors.

"One thing above all else will restore order to our streets: an overwhelming show of force to disperse, detain and ultimately deter lawbreakers." Incited by "violence" (mostly property damage, some clashes with cops trying to box in and disperse non-violent protestors) - but calling for dispersal of everyone. Using the military to crush a civil rights movement

Someone peacefully protesting is not a "lawbreaker". The quote you provided only refers to criminals. In fact "the right of the people peaceably to assemble" is explicitly allowed in the Constitution.

Please show me where he said peaceful protestors should have force used upon them.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#286

Post by dragonwriter »

refenestrator wrote: post #198
solosoyokaze wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leftists get canceled all the time (by liberals). Look at the censoring/smearing of Bernie Sanders and his supporters during the primary. Twitter bans leftist accounts all the time as well. Take a look at every VC in our industry and they espouse staunchly establishment neo-liberal policies. Calling Biden into question (which anyone on the left would do) is risking your career. The focus is often on censoring those o…

I was including Sanders and any Biden skeptic as "heretical liberals" -- no disagreement from me there.

It's important to understand that while the Right in America uses “liberal” to encompass everything to their left, the American Left (in line with much of the world outside the US, which did so longer) tends to use it specifically for a center-to-center-right pro-capitalist position roughly coextensive with neoliberalism; the (decreasingly, but still) dominant centrist wing of the Democratic Party is “liberal”, but not, in that view, most of the rest of the Party.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#287

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

heterodoxxed wrote: post #267
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what the article discusses and this is also the reason why it is relevant and why it applies. The topic becomes too controversial for a vocal minority and an author "voluntarily" self-censored. I chuckled when you said she did it herself. She did, likely after she was told what would happen otherwise. I chuckled, because I assume you think she is free the way Sartre suggested she is free?

I was responding to this: | This is truly the dark age of the information era. and this: | popular platforms are pressured to not do business with you Both implies greater forces at play than a small, small minority of voices on twitter making authors feel bad. Social media gave everyone a voice, what I don't understand is why anyone is surprised that there are vocal micro-minorities like this. Years ago, they wrote…

"| She did, likely after she was told what would happen otherwise.

Do you have any evidence of this or are you just saying it? "

If you are asking if I have inside information and maybe personal email between author and medium. I do not. It would be odd if I did. What I do have, however, is rather vivid memories of the same kind of idiocy working in practice in the old country, the only difference being that it was done under barely hidden threat from the state. All I have is instinct and here it is flashing bright red, because there are people in US right now, who are happily accepting this not only acceptable, but necessary ( not completely unlike communism era writers writing morality plays about the importance of writing things that are not upsetting to the system ).

"I was responding to this:

| This is truly the dark age of the information era.

and this:

| popular platforms are pressured to not do business with you

Both implies greater forces at play than a small, small minority of voices on twitter making authors feel bad.

Social media gave everyone a voice, what I don't understand is why anyone is surprised that there are vocal micro-minorities like this.

Years ago, they wrote a letter to the editor or the television station. Now they write it on Twitter.

That's not a dark age, and the opportunity to publish is much, much better now than it has ever been in the modern era."

If dissenting voices are silenced, it absolutely bears comparison to a dark age of information. You cannot excuse it. Nor should you.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#288

Post by inglor_cz »

commandlinefan wrote: post #248
BitwiseFool wrote: post #14

I genuinely wonder what cancel culture is going to look like in the next 5-10 years and beyond. Just about everyone I speak to about the subject agrees that cancel culture is bad but very few people seem willing to confront it. I sense that people hope the rest of society will come to its senses and we all stop being so judgemental. But as much as I loathe cancel culture and it's chilling effects on the free exchange…

The only way we'll ever be able to combat cancel culture is through online anonymity. I fear that we're drifting in the other direction, though - specifically to make cancellation easier.

I think the real answer is resilience. Enough people, especially those in positions of power (who decide whether to fire someone), must stop giving a shit.

There will be some evolutionary pressure there. I don't think Elon Musk would fire his engineer over a doubtful tweet, given that his own Twitter feed is pretty wild. Once some places establish themselves as safe, they will attract "mouthy talent".

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#289

Post by refenestrator »

whimsicalism wrote: post #249
refenestrator wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber's referendum won in California. I'm sure that people 'care', and I suppose I'm straw-manning those people.. I'm not straw-manning the system. Time and again, challenges to monetary order aren't permitted but puritanical word-propriety is encouraged. It's an energy outlet.

> Time and again, challenges to monetary order aren't permitted but puritanical word-propriety is encouraged. It's an energy outlet. I agree very much with this statement, but somehow have reached the opposite conclusion about whether "cancel culture" is a big problem that we need to spend a lot of time addressing. To me, that seems to be playing into the same issue you identified.

Glad we agree on the shape of things :)

I was more being descriptive than prescriptive, I'm just posting here.. but it's a problem that all of the energy and outrage go into stylistic and cultural bullshit. In a perfect world we could channel that energy into community organizing, electoralism, or other forms of people getting out there and interacting with the groups they claim to speak for.

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