Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims • Hacker News Board

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#211

Post by abathur » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #208

abathur wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26282500

25000 people.

I recall hearing that it was 29K on Griddy (myself included) before the storm. I've also heard a little over 10K were left to be transferred when it was shut down. I'm not sure exactly how many were exposed to the 4-days of artificially pegged prices.

I've also discovered over the past week that there's at least one more wholesale-rate provider, https://www.octopusenergy.com (specifically, it's OctoFlex plan).

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#212

Post by simonh » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

croes wrote: post #126

simonh wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private companies pay taxes, which profits other tax payers.

"After two straight years of paying $0 in U.S. federal income tax, Amazon was on the hook for a $162 million bill in 2019" "$162 million is still just a fraction of the $13.9 billion in pre-tax income Amazon reported for 2019 — roughly 1.2%" How much is your income tax rate?

Does the fact that some people game their personal income tax make your income tax contributions worthless or irrelevant? I'm not clear what point you're making.

Corporate income tax is the third highest source of tax revenue in the US, at $230bn in 2019. Shareholders also pay capital gains taxes, and companies pay other taxes as well or collect taxes for the government as well like sales taxes.

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#213

Post by meepmorp » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #196

meepmorp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iirc, when John McCain (born in Panama) was running against Obama, Congress passed legislation clarifying that people born on military bases abroad still counted as natural born citizens for electoral purposes.

McCain wasn't born abroad any more than if he had been born in D.C.; he was born on a US Naval Base in a US Territory. Also, a statute passed when he was running for President almost certainly could not have any effect on whether or not he was Constitutionally a natural born citizen.

I wasn't arguing that he was anything but a natural born citizen of the US, merely noting that legislation to clarify that case, in particular, was passed at the time.

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#214

Post by tzs » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

lmeyerov wrote: post #187

rayiner wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "deregulated" energy industry is built around that exact principle you're talking about, both in the US and the EU. The "platform" is the grid, which delivers electricity from plants to homes and businesses. Because competition in this area is limited, these companies are regulated monopolies, whose infrastructure decisions and rates are closely supervised by a government energy board. These entities work as part…

I thought energy generation is still regional in practice -- loosely, the further it goes, the more expensive -- and private co's deciding to cheap out on weather protections showed the king has no clothes in this case? grid sounds nice and platform-y, but when you zoom in, similar to us telcos: not quite as stable and abundant as the lobbyists advertise for any given region when you look. as an intuition, a solar pa…

I don't see why solar in Arizona would not help Maine.

If Maine has a shortage, they aren't going to get power directly from Arizona, but couldn't they get power from New Hampshire? If New Hampshire doesn't have any spare capacity, couldn't they still supply Maine and get some from Massachusetts to cover for what they send to Maine? And if Massachusetts doesn't have any spare, can't they similarly go ahead and supply New Hampshire, making it up with power from whoever is next west of them, ultimately ending up with Arizona's extra solar power allowing Maine to get through a shortfall?

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#215

Post by undefined1 » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

jonplackett wrote: post #41

This is the side of privatisation that gets ignored. When private companies screw up, who gets left with the bill? Private companies have no incentive to be ready for really big problems because they know they’ll get bailed out, or just not have to pay. Privatise the profit, socialise the losses.

when private companies screw up, they usually go bankrupt and die. you never hear from them again, if you even did in the first place (mostly not).

unless they are "too big to fail" and effectively part of the government. in that case yes, we all pay for their losses.

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#216

Post by hntrader » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 4:36 PM UTC

dkersten wrote: post #138

meepmorp wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we prosecute the janitors, too? What about the admin staff? I'm fine with burning HR at the stake, but some fairer minded folks might point out their general lack of involvement in business decisions that affect the public, as a reason to spare them. The kindest thing I could think to call your idea is naive and poorly conceived.

Do the janitors and admin staff hold shares? Ie do they benefit from the companies profits and do they have power over the board and executive teams? If not the shareholders, someone in control of the company should be held accountable to avoid a "company in trouble? oh well, just shut it down, debt go poof, start again elsewhere, pocket the profits" situation or a situation where the company does something like dama…

Shareholders already do get a penalty. The company gets fined which impacts future profitability and the stock price, thereby impacting shareholders.

Also, most often the shareholders of large companies have no knowledge of illegal behaviour because the responsible stakeholders/executives inside the org are hiding that information. Enron is an example.

What we need is more executive accountability. For example jail sentences to the HSBC execs that knowingly facilitated money laundering for the Sinaloa Cartel. Instead what we got was a mere fine which mostly impacted the shareholders.

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#217

Post by rayiner » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #214

lmeyerov wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought energy generation is still regional in practice -- loosely, the further it goes, the more expensive -- and private co's deciding to cheap out on weather protections showed the king has no clothes in this case? grid sounds nice and platform-y, but when you zoom in, similar to us telcos: not quite as stable and abundant as the lobbyists advertise for any given region when you look. as an intuition, a solar pa…

I don't see why solar in Arizona would not help Maine. If Maine has a shortage, they aren't going to get power directly from Arizona, but couldn't they get power from New Hampshire? If New Hampshire doesn't have any spare capacity, couldn't they still supply Maine and get some from Massachusetts to cover for what they send to Maine? And if Massachusetts doesn't have any spare, can't they similarly go ahead and supply…

The transmission grids aren’t connected like that.

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#218

Post by nybble41 » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

croes wrote: post #126

simonh wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private companies pay taxes, which profits other tax payers.

"After two straight years of paying $0 in U.S. federal income tax, Amazon was on the hook for a $162 million bill in 2019" "$162 million is still just a fraction of the $13.9 billion in pre-tax income Amazon reported for 2019 — roughly 1.2%" How much is your income tax rate?

According to their 2019 annual income statement[0], Amazon paid a total of $2.374B of foreign and domestic income tax on pre-tax income of $13.976B. That's 16.9%, not 1.2%. Is the author perhaps comparing US taxes with global income? (Or perhaps just whatever was left over after paying estimated taxes?) That certainly looks to be the case since they cited US federal income tax while the $13.9B pre-tax income figure is global, and even the domestic portion of the income taxes was $1.360B (9.73% of global pre-tax income), not $162M.

Given the federal corporate tax rate of 21%, the domestic tax numbers work out nicely if we assume approximately 46% of pre-tax income was from the US and the remaining 54% was foreign. Which seems plausible to me, though that is obviously a vast over-simplification and ignores a lot of details. In particular, the distribution of foreign and domestic deductible business expenses may not be the same as the distribution of revenues.

[0] https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/AMZN/financials/annua...

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#219

Post by imichael » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #181

snidane wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually well understood that privatisation for platform industries is bad, privatisation for businesses running on top of platforms is good. Networks and infrastructure = little to no competition. Eg. networks naturally settle in a optimal geographical location and utilize economy of scale then. Can't compete with that. So don't privatise platforms. Rather - make them monopolistic and make them share the revenu…

The "deregulated" energy industry is built around that exact principle you're talking about, both in the US and the EU. The "platform" is the grid, which delivers electricity from plants to homes and businesses. Because competition in this area is limited, these companies are regulated monopolies, whose infrastructure decisions and rates are closely supervised by a government energy board. These entities work as part…

It would seem that an important part of the "market" is missing, namely the ability of consumers to respond to price signals. If every customer could set a maximum price and automatically be cut off when the price goes higher then the load shedding would be automatic, with the available power going to those willing to pay more, presumably because they need it more or can afford it.

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#220

Post by volta83 » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #145

volta83 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . When private companies screw up, who gets left with the bill? The share holders (which often includes the leadership). Their shares drop relatively quickly to close zero. I think, however, that this is not enough. Share holders of a company should be liable as individuals for the damages the company causes in case the company cannot pay. This would strongly encourage share holders to pressure the CEO (which is al…

So who is paying who? Am I just transferring money from my 401k to someone else’s and then they transfer it back since we both own shares in index funds? Going to $0.00 is plenty of incentive for shareholders to demand accountability. It makes no sense to me to somehow go even lower than that. And why would shareholders be specifically punished but not creditors? If there is some liability claim how are shareholders…

> And why would shareholders be specifically punished but not creditors? If there is some liability claim how are shareholders not just equally responsible as everyone else including creditors?

FWIW I also believe that creditors should take more responsibility on the credit they give. We saw in the financial bubble of 2008 that there are many incentives for creditors to provide credit to persons and companies that _they know_ won't be able to pay.

> Am I just transferring money from my 401k to someone else’s and then they transfer it back since we both own shares in index funds?

Putting your 401k into stocks and index funds is a choice you make. Nobody forces you to do that, and you, e.g., put them in bonds instead for lower returns and lower risks, or if you are willing to take more risks, there are Index funds and ETF for pretty much any criteria you can imagine. I personally think that using a 401k with index funds on stock is a great choice given how the market has grown the last 100 years, but many countries actually don't have 401ks (e.g. most of Europe doesn't have them) and they do jut fine.

> What you’re proposing here could use some work.

That's a really positive and kind way to put it, thanks. It was just a thought.

The system of "a company is only liable with its assets" is what we have had for a very long time. There are many scams that exploit this, and a continuous stream of gross negliglence or malice that shows up every now and then when those at fault are able to just walk away and do it again.