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The Mars Helicopter Is Online and Getting Ready to Fly

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Re: The Mars Helicopter Is Online and Getting Ready to Fly

#251
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily; physical size matters a lot. Just an example: consider you were to add some extra electrical charge to the gate of a transistor (from an electron or ion beam, I don't know). A larger transistor has a higher gate capacitance, it is therefore quite immune against a few extra charges. On smaller transistors, though, it could dramatically increase the voltage, leading to a bit error, or destroying the tr…

This raises the question, why not simply continue to make larger circuits today for this purpose? Surely we could still make a chip today with the same transistor size as one from 2001, but better in other ways.

That's one way of doing it. But making bigger integrated circuits (IC) is hard. And it wouldn't automatically give you increased performance.

In microelectronics, costs are directly proportional to the die area. Actually, they might rise faster due to yield issues.

Making masks [1] is expensive. The bigger the mask, the more expensive. A mask set for a modern CPU can easily be in the millions, I think. And it gets more expensive with size.

Then you have yield. The bigger the chip, the more likely it has some defects (due to dust or other issues during fabrication). Often, processes work more or less well across a wafer: temperature higher in the center, etc. That can affect performance.

Due to yields, bigger chips have to be scrapped more often, and are generally less performant. Binning (selecting the fastest, slowest, more efficient, or chips with specific intact features across a wafer) is less effective. You might have to add redundancy or mechanisms to cut power to damaged areas to avoid short circuits.

Now, that's why we don't generally make bigger integrated circuits. Now, we could make bigger integrated circuits with today's latest clean rooms and equipment to try to raise yields. I don't know if that's being done already, but it would likely raise costs. On the other hand, progress is being made on bigger chips as well [2].

Another more promising direction (IMO) is to use chiplets like AMD does it. You could use more of these for a bigger virtual size.

Now, like I wrote, a lot of the performance improvements actually come down from physically scaling down the transistors: if the gate is smaller, the transistor needs less electrons to charge up. That means faster transistors, and less energy. Also, transistors are closer, so signals reach the next one faster [3].

If you want bigger chips at a previous technological node, you are going to need a huge heatsink, or disable part of the chip ("dark silicon") [4].

The real answer might come from completely different architectures, based on light or spin, or more power-efficient circuit/computer architectures like with adiabatic computing [5] (or non von neumann based, closer to what I do).

Power efficiency is key, since that's the limiting factor for performance nowadays (ask any overclocker: you don't want to melt your CPU. Also, rovers have a small energy budget). With better efficiency, you have room to grow performance again.

Paradoxally, software seems headed in the other direction, generally speaking.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photomask

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20739408

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennard_scaling

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_silicon

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_circuit

Re: The Mars Helicopter Is Online and Getting Ready to Fly

#252
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both, but the main limit of a parachute is that our probes don’t go into orbit first but rather crash on Mars. So you enter the atmosphere at higher than orbital speeds. From orbit a parachute might be doable despite the relatively thin atmosphere. Stationary probes can use retro rockets to land because you don’t care about their stationary mass that much. For rovers it’s more tricky so you have to either use airbags…

> Both, but the main limit of a parachute is that our probes don’t go into orbit first but rather crash on Mars. So you enter the atmosphere at higher than orbital speeds. From orbit a parachute might be doable despite the relatively thin atmosphere. > So you enter the atmosphere at higher than orbital speeds. From orbit a parachute might be doable despite the relatively thin atmosphere. Nonsense. We send orbiters to…

Getting into orbit for a lander means you need a much higher transit mass to include fuel and rockets capable of slowing you down.

The Martian atmosphere isn’t thick enough for this kind of aerobraking especially if want to get there within a relatively short period during the transit window.

Yes we do send orbiters and these have to be smaller and so are their landers due to you having to slow down to get into an orbit first. The vast majority of landers do not get into orbit.

Re: The Mars Helicopter Is Online and Getting Ready to Fly

#253
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was also excited about it, however an article critical of various points of Mars 2020 damped this quite a bit [1 (in German)]: Does the drone actually have any scientific relevance? I'm even doubtful it answers relevant engineering questions. I mean, it was tested in a pressure chamber already simulating mars atmosphere and gravity, we know it will work. The only question seems to be: Will it fail because of some e…

I do not agree at all that it is not useful but even if true the PR in itself is likely worth it, both for getting more attention to NASA (IE. budgeting) and for sparking ideas and dreams.

I'll gladly change my mind, what is it useful for?

On your other point, I'm sure many people find it fascinating and are inspired. However a young geologist or biologist might not be inspired to start a career at NASA. Another point the author of the article above makes it that in the ~2 hours of live coverage, 6 seconds were spent discussing the rovers instruments. As for budget, this is also dangerous; after all, if the next funding round comes along, anyone who does not like NASA can have an easy argument that the $80M on the helicopter are wasted and did not produce any knowledge about Mars or the universe.

Re: The Mars Helicopter Is Online and Getting Ready to Fly

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but you could still construct it in orbit. Imagine building four quadrants, spooning them together for launch, then fusing ("cold welding") them into a sphere in space.

It is surely better to construct them here, where we have all our tools, and if really necessary pump them out here. There just isn't an advantage to doing it in space. You end up paying more to create a lower-quality sphere. And what weighs more - the air that got trapped in the sphere when we made it, or the machine we sent up to space to assemble a sphere there?

It's not just the weight that's an issue, but also the volume.

Re: The Mars Helicopter Is Online and Getting Ready to Fly

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A consumer chip is a lot more likely to be permanently damaged by a "silver bullet" cosmic ray, though. Rad-hard chips don't just have shielding, they can also have redundant circuits and modifications to the foundry process. That said, I'm sure Ingenuity's processor is fit to purpose.

> A consumer chip is a lot more likely to be permanently damaged by a "silver bullet" cosmic ray, though. How much more likely? Are the odds all that high over the mission duration?

I don't have any numbers for you, but here's a starting source: https://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q11162.html

Most of my knowledge of the subject is from a friend who did his PhD dissertation on it; specifically, triply-redundant adder circuits for single-bit operations, allowing for some rad-hard chip designs using regular foundry processes.

Re: The Mars Helicopter Is Online and Getting Ready to Fly

#257
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Both, but the main limit of a parachute is that our probes don’t go into orbit first but rather crash on Mars. So you enter the atmosphere at higher than orbital speeds. From orbit a parachute might be doable despite the relatively thin atmosphere. > So you enter the atmosphere at higher than orbital speeds. From orbit a parachute might be doable despite the relatively thin atmosphere. Nonsense. We send orbiters to…

Getting into orbit for a lander means you need a much higher transit mass to include fuel and rockets capable of slowing you down. The Martian atmosphere isn’t thick enough for this kind of aerobraking especially if want to get there within a relatively short period during the transit window. Yes we do send orbiters and these have to be smaller and so are their landers due to you having to slow down to get into an or…

> The Martian atmosphere isn’t thick enough for this kind of aerobraking especially if want to get there within a relatively short period during the transit window.

Nonsense, once you've made your capture transit is over, you can take as long as you like aerobraking to circularise the orbit.

Even if you don't aerobrake at all, delta-V from a Mars intercept trajectory to even a low Mars orbit is about 1.4 km/s. Delta-V from that low orbit to the surface is 3.8 km/s. So the idea that direct descent vs descent from orbit is what makes the difference between parachutes being usable or not is total bollocks.

Re: The Mars Helicopter Is Online and Getting Ready to Fly

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept is known as a "vacuum airship". TL;DR: Materials aren't strong enough past very trivial volumes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_airship This is a plot element in Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age , as well as several other fictional appearances (Edgar Rice Burroughs, Azhar Abidi, Peter Watts, and Iain M. Banks all use the trope). There are no materials known with sufficient strength to withstand com…

I am following https://www.o-boot.com/en/ with interest. They claim to have solved the buckling issues by using a roman arch-like structure. The idea sounds relatively sound to me. One could construct a sphere out of aerogel cones, and the external pressure would reinforce it. Not sure how practical it would be to build such a thing, though. At some point, since volume grows slower than volume, I expect you can make…

s/since volume grows slower than volume/since surface area grows slower than volume/

Square-cube law. Mass scales with surface area, lift scales with volume. Large balloons (conventional, not vacuum) are simpler and more efficient than small ones.

As to materials, a tremendous problem with areogels are that they're exceedingly friable. Any friction, flexing, or stress will crumble the gell to a powder. I suspect this is why the gel hasn't taken off as it had been projected to. I did some very-early 1990s work in the space and aerogels were a noted emerging technology thought to have applications in, e.g., mobile home, pre-fab housing, and RV designs. For the most part, fibre-based insulation or expanded-foam (polystyrene) insulation remains the standard, largely because road and other vibration don't reduce your insulation to a few inches of fine dust at the bottom of wall cavities.

Material properties are complex, and represent interesting trade-offs between afforded capabilities and imposed constraints.

Re: The Mars Helicopter Is Online and Getting Ready to Fly

#259
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're interested in some fiction with this concept: In Neal Stephenson's 'Diamond Age' humans have mastered assembly of individual atoms in basically arbitrary ways. They use it (among other things) to create flying airships with an envelope made of diamond with a vacuum inside. Found it to be a fun read in general.

That's always a fun blast from the tech hype past where nanotechnology was going to be pure magic with tiny machines capable of doing anything. That was an exciting possible future while it lasted, nanotechnology is doing neat stuff but it's nowhere close to the wild promises.

I too always thought the field of clatreonics (1) would be further along by now.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claytronics

Re: The Mars Helicopter Is Online and Getting Ready to Fly

#260
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AVR = Augmented Virtual Reality. It's like CGI on steroids, crack, and speed at the same time. People still have the naivete to trust things because they are on a screen. Preconceived notions cause one to mentally miss or gloss over the great artistry and manipulation in AVR cartoons. The vid is worth the few minutes. It is a half decent scientific experiment that shows how rocket propulsion really works, and it show…

Just curious, are you experiencing some kind of psychosis? You have a strangely roundabout way of explaining your counterarguments here which doesn't seem to be really answering the question at all. Augmented Reality of course simply means integrating CGI into real footage. It is not "CGI on steroids". How would it help them fake the landing? Are you suggesting that the rover was computer generated, or the background…

You resort to ad hominem and assumptit. You are medicalizing dissent. Is that all you got?

I didn't make any arguments or counterarguments. I called bullshit on the Mars landing cartoon. You saw your sacred cow was called into question, then insinuated psychosis because I don't believe in your sacred cow.

All the video that NASA gives you is augmented Virtual reality cartoons.

Oxidation came up because rocket propulsion does not and can not work in a vacuum, because combustion of propellant cannot occur in a real vacuum. That being the case, how did they get a rocket propelled device across millions of miles of interstellar vacuum?

They didn't. NASA is playing you for suckers.

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