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Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

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Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#81
post #65
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private investors get left with the bill. If it was a public utility it would be tax payers. That would be socializing losses. Edit: people really don’t know how bankruptcy works? Equity holds get wiped out first followed by bond holders.

Nope. They file bankruptcy. And the bill is left on the table. Only profits (divident) go to investors. If a company becomes insolvable the investors are shielded. Similar to when a company operated against the law: profits were taken by investors, now they can sink the shop when the law suits start. > If it was a public utility it would be tax payers. That would be socializing losses. No-one is arguing against that!…

Yes, but many investors will have bought their share in the company, and that is worthless.

Whether they had enough money paid out through dividends in the run-up to that point or not is situation dependent - the company could not pay dividends at all.

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a politician enacts a policy that ignores some big tail risk, they won’t be in office when it eventually blows up. Who foots the bill in that case? Certainly the politician and maybe their party won’t suffer election losses from it.

I think this is the reason politicians all around the world have been so ill-equipped to deal with Covid - they are used to their decisions having 10 / 20 year repercussions, by which time they're well out of the blame-zone.

This is one reason why having well managed, capable institutions matters so much. Don't get me wrong, democracy is vital to ensure accountability, but it often worries me when elected politicians interfere in the management of specialist institutions unless they are clearly mismanaged. These things can take generations to develop but only a few months years to cripple.

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#83
post #70

This is the side of privatisation that gets ignored. When private companies screw up, who gets left with the bill? Private companies have no incentive to be ready for really big problems because they know they’ll get bailed out, or just not have to pay. Privatise the profit, socialise the losses.

> Privatise the profit, socialise the losses. I always wondered about that. Maybe because I don’t understand what it’s trying to say. I mean profits of companies benefit many, don’t they? Through jobs, taxes, dividends in case it’s a public company and so on. What am I getting wrong here?

All of those jobs would have still existed in a public utility. How many dividends do you think the average Texan got from the various power companies in Texas?

How do you think the taxes paid by those private utilities will stack up against the massive harm caused by those utilities trying to preserve profits and reduce liability in a crisis? How much do you think it will cost Texan tax payers to dig themselves out of this hole?

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#84
post #16
post #13

Elon Musk making the move to Texas specifically to avoid the regulation that would have helped stop this from happening, would be kicking himself right now if he was in any way affected by this or consistent in his beliefs.

Is he against regulation to keep power plants working in winter?

Is he against regulations that he benefits from? Probably not.

Would he be against a regulation that counted his factories as non essential in case the grid needs to be relieved? Yes.

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#85
post #70

This is the side of privatisation that gets ignored. When private companies screw up, who gets left with the bill? Private companies have no incentive to be ready for really big problems because they know they’ll get bailed out, or just not have to pay. Privatise the profit, socialise the losses.

> Privatise the profit, socialise the losses. I always wondered about that. Maybe because I don’t understand what it’s trying to say. I mean profits of companies benefit many, don’t they? Through jobs, taxes, dividends in case it’s a public company and so on. What am I getting wrong here?

> Maybe because I don’t understand what it’s trying to say.

When a business venture is doing well, it pays generous salaries to executives and avoids taxes. When the business venture fails or creates grotesque havoc through incompetence or bad principles, a government of cronies will use tax-payers' money to pay for the consequences.

The business venture continues its "mission" and its perpetrators continue their careers.

Think of the extraordinary sums of money given to corporations "too big to fail".

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a politician enacts a policy that ignores some big tail risk, they won’t be in office when it eventually blows up. Who foots the bill in that case? Certainly the politician and maybe their party won’t suffer election losses from it.

I think this is the reason politicians all around the world have been so ill-equipped to deal with Covid - they are used to their decisions having 10 / 20 year repercussions, by which time they're well out of the blame-zone.

The thing that I find surprising about the US government is that everything is a bill/law. Like instead of the transportation agency deciding to build a bridge, Congress has to pass a law to build a bridge. Does anyone know exactly why it’s set up this way?

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#87
post #73

This is the side of privatisation that gets ignored. When private companies screw up, who gets left with the bill? Private companies have no incentive to be ready for really big problems because they know they’ll get bailed out, or just not have to pay. Privatise the profit, socialise the losses.

> . When private companies screw up, who gets left with the bill? The share holders (which often includes the leadership). Their shares drop relatively quickly to close zero. I think, however, that this is not enough. Share holders of a company should be liable as individuals for the damages the company causes in case the company cannot pay. This would strongly encourage share holders to pressure the CEO (which is al…

I get what you're saying, but limited liability has been a thing for quite a while now. It would be hard to find a few billion dollars to make a new car plant if you could lose more than you put in. But also there are already "piercing the veil" laws where you actually are liable for your business if you commit fraud.

Perhaps it's worth a rethink, as it's been a while since the 1800s when capital was scarce.

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#88

This is the side of privatisation that gets ignored. When private companies screw up, who gets left with the bill? Private companies have no incentive to be ready for really big problems because they know they’ll get bailed out, or just not have to pay. Privatise the profit, socialise the losses.

> . When private companies screw up, who gets left with the bill?

In theory, the company is meant to declare bankruptcy (or seek more investment from shareholders) as soon as their books say they are insolvent. A company is Insolvent when it's liabilities are higher than it's assets, even by a single dollar.

The theory is that because the company is required to declare bankruptcy as soon as possible, it should only be slightly insolvent and should be able to repay creditors 80-95 cents on the dollar after liquidation.

Owners or shareholders might even put a company into bankruptcy while it's still solvent (if they predict a future insolvency, or just want to wrap the company up). Creditors might get the full 100 cents on the dollar. Any money beyond that is paid as dividends to the owners/shareholders.

In theory, if a company had incompetent or fraudulent accounting practices and didn't know it was insolvent, or it deliberately traded while insolvent, then the liability of the company is pierced and the owner can find themselves on the hook to the creditors.

Companies are only meant to be liability shields if they are run correctly.

In reality, sometimes events cause a company to lose a whole lot of value overnight. A company could be 100% solvent one month and 20% solvent the next. But as long as the company was following best accounting practices, it's legal. Sometimes the assets of a company can lose value after bankruptcy, or due to the bankruptcy. Especially when the company has put a lot of "good will" or "brand recognition" as assets on their books.

In reality, liquidators (who are also private companies) often don't go after owners responsible for fraudulent accounting or mismanagement. They let it slide.

Perhaps because they didn't detect it, or it was too minor to worry about. Perhaps they didn't want to waste their time trying to prosecute. Perhaps they decided their creditors would get more cents on the dollar by not prosecuting, especially if the owner has very little of their own assets.

I also suspect there is a reputation factor. Owners get to select which liquidator handles their bankruptcy (unless it was court ordered) and if one liquidator gets a reputation for going after the owners for every mistake, then they might get less business.

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#89
post #73

This is the side of privatisation that gets ignored. When private companies screw up, who gets left with the bill? Private companies have no incentive to be ready for really big problems because they know they’ll get bailed out, or just not have to pay. Privatise the profit, socialise the losses.

> . When private companies screw up, who gets left with the bill? The share holders (which often includes the leadership). Their shares drop relatively quickly to close zero. I think, however, that this is not enough. Share holders of a company should be liable as individuals for the damages the company causes in case the company cannot pay. This would strongly encourage share holders to pressure the CEO (which is al…

Do we prosecute the janitors, too? What about the admin staff? I'm fine with burning HR at the stake, but some fairer minded folks might point out their general lack of involvement in business decisions that affect the public, as a reason to spare them.

The kindest thing I could think to call your idea is naive and poorly conceived.

Re: Texas electric firm files for bankruptcy citing $1.8B in claims

#90
post #47

Isn’t it mind-boggling that under the stress of winter, the same infrastructure that they had yesterday suddenly costs billions of dollars more to operate? Profiting from calamity. The exact opposite of how public utilities should operate.

I think I read somewhere that prices are capped at USD 9000 per MWh. That is still USD 9 per KWh which is insane pricing.
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