In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#311

Post by criddell » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 10:51 PM UTC

heliodor wrote: post #307

criddell wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article [1] about what determines a persons handedness starts out: > Like most aspects of human behavior, handedness is a complex trait that appears to be influenced by multiple factors, including genetics, environment, and chance. It goes on to say that there are up to 40 genes that contribute. It seems like it's complex enough that the central limit theorem should apply yet handedness is definitely a bimodal d…

Handedness is not what people care about in discussing personality assessment. Check out the big five model: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits Neuroticism, openness, agreeableness, conscientiousness, extraversion. On each dimension, many people are average and a few are on each extreme. At least that's the world I've observed. It's not a world full of extreme introverts and extreme extrovert…

When I did a Myers Briggs test almost 40 years ago, I think I came up INTP (or something like that). I never interpreted the I to be extreme introvert, although I'm definitely on that side of the scale.

I wonder how many people score exactly on the mid-point and when that happens, what do they do?

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#312

Post by ncmncm » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 11:09 PM UTC

Xcelerate wrote: post #236

ncmncm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not science, or science-adjacent, or anything to do with science. It doesn't pretend to be. That's not what it's for. You can always lie, about anything you like. You can put salt in the sugar bowl. You can substitute decaf in for the coffee at the office, and give everybody caffeine-withdrawl headaches. You can have your dog crap in the sandbox at the park. What do you imagine you would prove, by that? (I give…

> All you did lying on the test was to land in a different box than if you had not lied. Again, which is why I mentioned in my post that there are scientific problems with the field as a whole, so I don’t understand the undue targeting of MBTI compared to everything else. You realize people are prescribed or not prescribed controlled substances on the basis of their responses to other questionnaires, right? You can l…

Anybody using MB to choose how and whether to prescribe controlled substances is engaging in malpractice and should have their license revoked, post-haste, and probably should be incarcerated besides.

That said, the DSM has its own problems.

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

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Post by runarberg » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 11:18 PM UTC

runarberg wrote: post #310

Udik wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't understand which of these criticisms doesn't apply to the Big Five too.

They do. The best criticism I see on the Mayers Briggs is the one that attacks the whole notion of personality tests (including Mayers Briggs and the Big 5). Big 5 is not an established scientific theory, it has never been. In fact in the field of psychology, personality is as useful as a concept as your astrological sign is. There is no evidence that personality trades exists outside of factor analyzing pen and pape…

> however there is no evidence that people that score highly on the agreeableness factor do.

I went and did some exploring of the literature and found a study[1] that seems to contradict this statement. E.g. they found a significant correlation between Agreeableness factor and obedience in the Milgram experiment. However, the effect size is fairly small. Political leaning was also significant with similar effect size, and this study has yet to be replicated.

[1]: https://archivesic.ccsd.cnrs.fr/sic_01158395/document

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#314

Post by ncmncm » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 11:19 PM UTC

Smaug123 wrote: post #190

ncmncm wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you do not see it how it would be useful, my recommendation is do not buy it . I have not bought it, but I have used it. I justify using it because it is useful to me: It helps me understand how people very different from myself interact with their world. These other people are not wrong, just different. Remarkably often, the differences are quite comprehensible. It helps to organize those differences. The precise…

If the purpose is merely to understand how people different from you view the world, then why take the test at all, rather than just reading about the ~sixteen personality types MBTI distinguishes between? The MBTI consultant who administered the test to me couldn't answer that question.

I don't need to take the test to know which box I'm in. But I do need other people to take it, to know which box they fit in. Is this really hard to understand?

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#315

Post by Twisol » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 11:20 PM UTC

pseudalopex wrote: post #269

Twisol wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> E.g. INTX will LIKELY have to put in more conscious effort to improve social skills in order to better communicate with people I knew I needed to work on my social skills long before I tested as an INTP. My criticism is not that the correlations don't exist. My criticism is that they don't seem helpful . > It also gives insights into how a person thinks and perceives the world [...] which otherwise you would have t…

Helpful is subjective. I don't feel like sharing something personal here though. Do you take the time to understand everyone you meet, their motivations, their goals, and their challenges? Even the ones who don't want you to?

> Do you take the time to understand everyone you meet, their motivations, their goals, and their challenges? Even the ones who don't want you to?

To the degree our relationship warrants. Don't you? We all form mental models of the people we interact with over time. I don't see how the MBTI helps that process. As mentioned, for some people who have interacted with me, it has hindered that process by establishing a totem to which I am compared.

Is the argument that MBTI is useful when interacting with people you don't spend time with, who have a brief and transient presence in your life? Or is it more akin to birdwatching? I don't see either of those options as especially useful, but I won't fault anybody for it.

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#316

Post by warmfuzzykitten » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 11:43 PM UTC

Because human beings can be described in four bits.

Oh, four bits isn't enough? Four scales, then. That fixes it.

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#317

Post by Terretta » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 12:48 AM UTC

souprock wrote: post #304

pseudalopex wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Myers Briggs tests have profiles of each type usually. Big 5 tests don't.

So, to fix the Big 5 tests: 1. Write up 32 profile descriptions, each with an inoffensive name. 2. Come up with less-offensive names for the Big 5 traits. You can't politely call somebody neurotic, even if it is true. Most people wouldn't admit to being neurotic. It's not nice to ask about that. 3. Somehow, make sure the old names like "neurotic" are dead and buried.

“But the big 5 spell OCEAN, you can’t just make it be not a word,” they protest neurotically.

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#318

Post by Terretta » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 12:54 AM UTC

d_silin wrote: post #56

I took M-B test and was surprised how accurate it was in describing my personality type. I suspect my personality traits are closer to endpoints of its scales, making it more precise for me.

People are surprised by the daily horoscope in the paper too, even when they’re shuffled and relabeled.

- Double Blind Test - https://escholarship.org/content/qt0b40b045/qt0b40b045.pdf?t...

- Popular Horoscopes and the Barnum Effect - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00223980.1983.99...

- Using Daily Horoscopes to Demonstrate Expectancy Confirmation - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1207/S15328023TOP2702_08

”Prior expectations can lead a person to process information in a biased manner such that the expectations are confirmed. Despite its prevalence in everyday judgments, people lack insight into expectancy confirmation processes. The classroom demonstration we describe uses daily horoscopes to demonstrate the powerful effect that expectations can have on judgments. More students reported that the events of a recent day most closely matched the prediction for their particular astrological sign when the astrological signs were presented along with the predictions than when they were not.”

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#319

Post by Terretta » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 1:00 AM UTC

qwerty456127 wrote: post #38

Whoever knows more personality type systems please share (no matter how credible or bizarre they are, just list). I bet I have seen at least at least one original brand personality type start-up presented here on HN some years ago and another brand new one advertised on Google+ when it was a thing. I have probably stumbled upon at least 6 or more but can't remember any other than MBTI, the Socionics, and the Enneagra…

These days you’re likely to run into WPI or WPI-Pro, Workplace Personality Inventory for Professionals:

https://thepsychometricworld.com/wpi-pro/

The following is quoted from that link to save you a click:

WPI-Pro is a comprehensive work personality assessment tool developed and validated over several years of research and improvements. It helps you to make better selection and development decisions. In only 45 minutes you can have invaluable information about the candidate that could otherwise take months or even years to acquire. Over 5 years of rigorous research has shaped this unique psychometric test based on trait theory of personality (BIG FIVE MODEL) and is mapped on 80+ behavioral competencies.

WPI-Pro is designed and validated to cover a variety of job performance aspects including:

    - Leadership
    - Decision making
    - Organizing & prioritizing
    - Planning and coordination
    - Self motivation
    - Stress tolerance
    - Emotional resilience
    - Honesty and integrity
    - Team work
    - Interpersonal/Cross-cultural sensitivity 
    - … AND MANY MORE

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#320

Post by rawgabbit » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 1:07 AM UTC

Xcelerate wrote: post #19

I've never really understood the harsh criticisms of MBTI. It's not super predictive, but not to be honest, nothing else in psychology is either; the whole field is just not anywhere near the level of physics or chemistry (not to blame the researchers; predicting humans is very hard). The big 5 and I think more recently an 18 dimensional breakdown (using PCA or ICA?) just aren't that much better than MBTI, despite ma…

Scientific studies support the Big 5 or Hexaco model of personality. Sticking with MBTI is the same as saying the earth is flat despite evidence to the contrary. MBTI was not created Jung. But my two fans of Jung. There is a huge difference.