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Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

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Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#81

Post by tanelpoder »

eloff wrote: post #16
juanbyrge wrote: post #7

It is quite pathetic that a purported 'future of payments' is so inefficient in so many ways. This is why I will never participate in systems like bitcoin that consume hundreds of TwH (and growing) each year.

Its not a payment system (unless the transaction is sufficiently large). It's more like digital gold. But gold has a track record of holding value over millennia. Bitcoin is only a decade old. Will it hold up over time? Nobody actually knows.

Also, what happens when the power is out? Texas power grid was apparently a few minutes from completely collapsing recently, with some estimates that it'd take up to months to get it fully back online (and what does electricity cost around that time?). Or if a weather event seems too local, what about a major solar flare that takes out transformer capacity for years? (and it would be expensive for a long time). One could revert back to cash and gold without power, but bitcoin transactions?

Edit: I guess the summary would be that cash & gold are decoupled from electricity (even if it takes some to create/mine them), but Bitcoin's entire existence depends on continuous availability of (cheap enough) electricity.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#82

Post by Bluestein »

sp332 wrote: post #67
auntienomen wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And rebutted in the equally well known "Bitcoin: A Comically Badly Designed and Completely Dysfunctional Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System".

It was an impressive proof of concept. There are technically better cryptocurrencies (along pretty much any dimension), but they just didn't get as much attention. Maybe these articles about how bad bitcoin is should call out some alternatives.

This.

Point to the many, innovative, options.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#83

Post by bpodgursky »

Aachen wrote: post #57
bpodgursky wrote: post #19

Great. I welcome this! [continues to hold my Proof-of-Stake Ethereum]

Ethereum isn't currently proof of stake, or did I miss out on some huge news?

It's... partway there. The Beacon chain is running, although I don't think it's processing all transactions yet.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#84

Post by eloff »

civilized wrote: post #73
eloff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not a payment system (unless the transaction is sufficiently large). It's more like digital gold. But gold has a track record of holding value over millennia. Bitcoin is only a decade old. Will it hold up over time? Nobody actually knows.

Who needs digital gold? Why not just trade ownership rights to actual gold? We used to have gold-backed paper money and you can easily trade gold electronically today.

By putting it in a central database? We already do that. If wager you can probably buy gold online which just changes digital records while the gold doesn't move in the vault.

If you don't trust the bank our government you can put it on a blockchain. It sounds a little silly to us, but remember half the world lives in non free countries. So trust in government and institutions is a big concern. But then why bother with the gold? Proof of work ensures scarcity. So just drop the gold from the equation and now you have bitcoin.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#85

Post by zepto »

slashdev wrote: post #74
zepto wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> easier to divide and transact and verify ownership Yes, in the presence of high tech infrastructure, but otherwise impossible. Gold coins carry on working no matter what the nazis do to the internet and the chip foundries.

The Nazis famously confiscated gold. At least if they shutdown the internet you still own your bitcoin.

The Nazis can confiscate the hard drives where your keys are stored.

And - it’s not going to help you against the Nazis if you can’t transact it.

As to gold - that misses the point. Of course it can be taken from you.

However unless that happens, you can still transact it. People escaped the Nazis using gold to pay their way.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#86

Post by noxer »

superkuh wrote: post #49
hashkb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you need the armies to protect the infrastructure that powers bitcoin? And if you get to the point where you don't need armies, do you need a massive global network to verify you can trust the people you're doing business with?

Bitcoin infrastructure is distributed widely across the world. No single country disappearing off the face of the earth entirely would take it down before the internet itself went down.

Assuming Thanos would snap away China (the whole land not just the people) bitcoin definitely could be considered "down" because it would no longer mine blocks every 10 minutes on average. Difficulty does adjust but that take weeks. the internet would not be effected like that.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#87

Post by human »

juanbyrge wrote: post #7

It is quite pathetic that a purported 'future of payments' is so inefficient in so many ways. This is why I will never participate in systems like bitcoin that consume hundreds of TwH (and growing) each year.

There’s definitely been improvements in cryptocurrencies since Bitcoin was launched. I’m a big fan of Cardano for example which is led by a scientific community and not apes posting diamond hands and rockets. Sadly it seems like the network effects and “brand” of Bitcoin is winning over better technology. This has to change before we spend a significant portion of our power capacity on a money system. I don’t want aliens to see us like that when they come visit.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#88

Post by smcameron »

auntienomen wrote: post #6

I have come to beieve that bitcoin is art. No intrinsic value, and each unit is individually labeled, nearly as identifiable as a numbered print.

Surely you must be aware of the crypto-art bubble currently happening. See, e.g. https://foundation.app https://rarible.com https://mintable.app etc.

Full disclosure, I'm trying to fund my open source space game via https://mintable.app/u/smcameron It's totally not working though, because it's obviously ridiculous. Luckily my funding needs are quite modest. (I should have just bought Cardano instead of this silliness.)

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#89

Post by tempestn »

amir734jj wrote: post #21
juanbyrge wrote: post #7

It is quite pathetic that a purported 'future of payments' is so inefficient in so many ways. This is why I will never participate in systems like bitcoin that consume hundreds of TwH (and growing) each year.

As an owner of 50 bitcoins that I bought in 2010, I must say I agree with you. I don't see bitcoin as a future of money nor payment.

I'm curious, did you originally own more than 50? If not, do you have a plan for when you will sell? I know if I'd bought 50 bitcoins back in 2010 I would have sold them, or at least most of them, many times over by now.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#90

Post by erikpukinskis »

anm89 wrote: post #64

And then this one time, bitcoin went all the way up to $30 and then crashed all the way down to $13. And another time bitcoin went all the way up to $1100 and then crashed all the way down to $200. So the moral of this story is don't buy bitcoin. You know it's going to crash.

Takeaway: Buy the peak and your investment will still go up 7x.
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