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Taxing Families Like Companies

americancompass.org

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Re: Taxing Families Like Companies

#31
post #4

Of all the potential problems facing our species, running out of new people does not seem to be a concern at all. I’m not surprised that during a worldwide pandemic, our birthrate fell in a society marked by ready access to effective contraception. I don’t think it’s reasonable to draw a straight line through that and worry about declining population, but I suspect this was written to be read about as reasonably as “…

You only feel this way because you aren't paying attention to the demographics of eastern europe and east asia. If it was simply a matter of "running out of new people" it might be OK -- a gradual decrease in population of 50% over a few generation could be sustainable. That's not the issue The core problem is long lifespans creating a massively inverted age pyramid. At the extreme, the emerging pattern in urban Chin…

If you look at dependency ratios since the 1950s they really haven't changed a massive amount (the elderly and children both need to be cared for) and the change has been linear and largely compensated for by economic growth.

What is crushing us is economic inequality - that change is geometric and has been the real driver of anemic fertility. Who wants to start a family under mountains of debt on a gig job wage?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the media we consume is largely owned by people who would prefer we believed we were getting crushed under a self created demographic time bomb rather than their greed.

It's a death spiral, and a real problem.

Re: Taxing Families Like Companies

#32

How about we just ensure everyone has enough by implementing UBI or a negative tax rate, combined with medicare for all? Then everyone has what they need without the complexity of turning humans into financial objects.

This would not work.UBI would raise inflation to sky high level making basic utilities and products super expensive. UBI needs to be combined with taxes and tax exemptions on things that are essential to life like housing and healthy food,healthcare and some other things I cant think of right now.Everything else can be treated as a luxury and can be achieved through conventional capitalist methods.

It sounds like you’re suggesting preemptively increasing sales taxes on luxuries to prevent richer people buying them with their UBI and thus pushing the prices up. The net is the same, prices including sales tax (which everyone pays anyway) go up. If this is an attempt to fund UBI with sales taxes on luxuries (and I’m speculating here) then this could be achieved with progressive taxation - cut income tax for the poor and increase it for those who would be buying the luxuries.

I don’t subscribe to the view that this is necessary to support UBI though. Most of it, outside of the well off will get spend on basics anyway. More of a concern for me would be employers cutting wages.

Re: Taxing Families Like Companies

#33
post #2

> As a result, families pay a disproportionate share of federal tax receipts This is simply because companies pay money to individuals who then pay taxes. This is a feature not a bug as taxing companies is less efficient from just having employee pay as a deduction that gets taxed downstream. Trying to tax this money before it gets to employees would result in double taxation as the company would pay and the individu…

This article is another conservative puff piece that doesn't belong on Hacker News. They are pushing for a flat tax which is a regressive tax.

I don't think the flat tax is a good idea, but I would love a simpler tax code.

But I remember having a long conversation with a friend who was an economist on why corporations were able to deduct things they needed to provide their services, but I as an individual couldn't do the same. It's a valid and interesting topic to discuss, imo.

Re: Taxing Families Like Companies

#34

In the UK, I get a little frustrated there is such a focus on an individual's income rather than a family's income - if you consider the tax paid by a pair of working parents each earning £50k vs a family where 1 person earns 100k and the other does not work, the pair earning £50k each are much better off. (Child tax credits are removed gradually as the higher earner exceeds £50k, as well as the tax bands meaning som…

[deleted]

Re: Taxing Families Like Companies

#35
post #2

> As a result, families pay a disproportionate share of federal tax receipts This is simply because companies pay money to individuals who then pay taxes. This is a feature not a bug as taxing companies is less efficient from just having employee pay as a deduction that gets taxed downstream. Trying to tax this money before it gets to employees would result in double taxation as the company would pay and the individu…

I think a big problem is that the number of employees required to run many types of businesses has been steadily decreasing over time as technology improves. McDonald's for example went from 440,000 employees to 205,000 from 2012 to 2019 [1]. Multiply that out to include manufacturing companies and it's pretty easy to find the reason governments are strapped for cash. Maybe it's time to tax automation? [1] https://ww…

> Maybe it's time to tax automation?

1000% yes; I work in industrial mobile robots and it's obvious that governments need to find a way to capture some of the value which is being created there, particular when it's a more-or-less direct trade of a wage-earning employee for a one-off capital investment.

Are there are any major proposals yet for how this might work, or has already worked? The "existing" section on this suspiciously-OR Wikipedia article is pretty scant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_tax#Existing_laws

Re: Taxing Families Like Companies

#36
In some sense it is reasonable to tax companies on profit rather than revenue as there are plenty of intermediaries who are good for the economy but who make tiny margins and therefore couldn’t survive if they were taxed on revenue. On the other hand, it seems there are insufficient incentives for companies to make a profit which then gets taxed rather than stashing cash in various ways or busting back stock (I think this is taxes but less than profits but I might be wrong). It also feels reasonable to tax people on income rather than some kind of profit analogue because, frankly, many people don’t make much profit and it doesn’t really make sense to talk of profit: if people are their own shareholders then is buying a house an expense or a profit distributed to the shareholders in kind?

I worry that it can distort the way the economy works in a way that prioritises appealing to businesses as they pay less for things. For example if you want to spend $200 at a restaurant then you need to generate (say) $400 gross income which means generating (say) $1000 of value for your employer. Whereas if that employer wants to spend $200 at that restaurant then they must forego $200 of profit which means they must forgo (say) $160 of post-tax profits. This massively incentives that restaurant to appeal to companies because it is cheaper for them.

While companies are in some sense made of people, I think their spending is unrepresentative because it has less variance. Companies tend to like boring things (often there might not be much they can do about it) so if their willingness to buy things is so important, we will also get more boring things. (Consider charities: if your company decides to give 1% of profits/revenue/whatever to charity, they will probably have to give to some extremely generic charity that many people don’t particularly like. If instead they allocate that 1% between employees to choose how it is distributed, you would expect to see money going to a wider variety of charities. I claim that is better for the people in the company and for charities in general.)

It also doesn’t feel particularly capitalist that companies are incentivised to not have profits. Maybe you just think capitalism is bad but I don’t think it’s better for companies to stash profits than to give up the capital to be allocated to better things, whatever they may be.

I don’t really have a good answer. Georgism doesn’t seem like a great answer to me. Even the very wealthy don’t need to own a particularly large amount of land. The main use is for farming and it feels regressive to put almost all taxation into the price of food. It seems like too much value isn’t derived from the land itself anymore.

Taxing other exclusive rights (eg patents) from which value can be derived also doesn’t feel great as plenty of profitable businesses don’t need patents (including plenty who have many patents).

I think I’d want some kind of scheme where Amazon would have to pay an amount of tax that would feel fair to someone who ran a high-street shop, rather than paying a tax on the size of their warehouses.

Maybe the solution is a regressive tax like a high vat in combination with some measure to counter the regressiveness like UBI, but I’m not very convinced of the real-world merits of UBI.

Maybe the solution is just to have company spending dominate our economy.

Re: Taxing Families Like Companies

#37
post #2

> As a result, families pay a disproportionate share of federal tax receipts This is simply because companies pay money to individuals who then pay taxes. This is a feature not a bug as taxing companies is less efficient from just having employee pay as a deduction that gets taxed downstream. Trying to tax this money before it gets to employees would result in double taxation as the company would pay and the individu…

>People who complain about “companies not paying taxes...” don’t understand the principles behind taxation very well

It's true that people don't understand the principles or details very well, but it's also true that the principles are just a starting point on a convoluted road to a working understanding.

Corporate income taxes are paid on profits. Individual income tax is on revenue. That's the principle. Square that principle with the amount of tax paid over time by the most profitable companies, say amazon. Square the idea of individual income tax with the actual amount paid by Bezos.

Re: Taxing Families Like Companies

#38
post #2

> As a result, families pay a disproportionate share of federal tax receipts This is simply because companies pay money to individuals who then pay taxes. This is a feature not a bug as taxing companies is less efficient from just having employee pay as a deduction that gets taxed downstream. Trying to tax this money before it gets to employees would result in double taxation as the company would pay and the individu…

I think a big problem is that the number of employees required to run many types of businesses has been steadily decreasing over time as technology improves. McDonald's for example went from 440,000 employees to 205,000 from 2012 to 2019 [1]. Multiply that out to include manufacturing companies and it's pretty easy to find the reason governments are strapped for cash. Maybe it's time to tax automation? [1] https://ww…

Is that the McDonald's headcount or the McDonald's plus franchisee headcount?

If it is direct employees, some of the explanation would be that they sold locations to franchisees https://www.wsj.com/articles/mcdonalds-revenue-falls-as-comp...

Re: Taxing Families Like Companies

#40
post #2

> As a result, families pay a disproportionate share of federal tax receipts This is simply because companies pay money to individuals who then pay taxes. This is a feature not a bug as taxing companies is less efficient from just having employee pay as a deduction that gets taxed downstream. Trying to tax this money before it gets to employees would result in double taxation as the company would pay and the individu…

You’re talking about why we can’t treat corporations like families with higher tax rates. To me the more interesting question is more about treating families like corporations. We had a nanny for a year. She made about $50k, but I had to pay her with after-tax income so the actual cost of the nanny was closer to $70k of my pretax income. This is the precise double taxation you’re talking about. Yes, higher income peo…

What if you don't earn income, would you say that the nanny's wage is lower?
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