WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#171

Post by chrisco255 » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 11:11 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #166

sceox wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Matrix allows any number of clients to be made, it's entirely possible for one client to do the things you list at the same time as other clients don't for the reasons you mention. If I had to guess, it won't be Element, it will be a new client preconfigured to some (not matrix.org) server.

But why would anyone do it? What is the incentive to invest the resources into building an application with a good UX? This is why businesses win: aligned incentives.

Same reason. You can build a business on top of the Matrix protocol. You could create a slick UI and charge $5-$10 for it. You could insert ads. You could add micropayments, crypto, etc... whatever the market wants.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#172

Post by rakoo » Sat, Feb 27, 2021, 12:36 AM UTC

hiq wrote: post #97

ezst wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> _why_ communication has moved away from email Has it, though? I don't think we are any step closer now to dropping email than we were 25 years ago. > or why XMPP/IRC never really caught on despite being vastly older than these app competitors Could be the lack of marketing (because there isn't a corporation or venture capital money behind benefiting from exponential user base growth) and critical mass/peer-pressure…

> Has it, though? I don't think we are any step closer now to dropping email than we were 25 years ago. I think OP meant that there's been a significant decrease in usage. In my case I can definitely relate to this for personal communications, I no longer send emails to personal acquaintances, I mostly use email for professional purposes, so I think OP's point stands. > Could be the lack of marketing (because there i…

> Decentralization, like being-open source, does not provide short-term benefits to a user, so you still need distinguishing features.

XMPP's killer feature is, for me, its pubsub capability (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html). From a technical point of view it's just an ordered key-value store with notification, but from a user point of view it allows way more uses than "simply" messaging: microblogging (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0277.html, can replace twitter), generic status updating (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html), good-old key-value store (keys for OMEMO), standard blogging (to replace Facebook)

XMPP also has message types and threadings, so you can build stuff like forums (to replace Reddit), diffusion lists (like Telegram channels)...

It has everything, and it is there to be used. Some clients have done it for some time now, it's not a technical problem anymore; it's a marketing problem. None of what Whatsapp or Facebook Messenger or Telegram or Signal do cannot be done by XMPP.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#173

Post by luplex » Sat, Feb 27, 2021, 12:47 AM UTC

zaik wrote: post #167

luplex wrote: post #3

Matrix is eating the world of messengers. I'm very bullish on the protocol. There hasn't yet been a lot of thought around the economic incentives of matrix, like who is supposed to run a Homeserver?

If you believe the account of [0] then running a Matrix server is much more costly than running a XMPP server. [0] https://wiki.404.city/en/XMPP_vs_Matrix

I would suspect so, since matrix is not about message passing, but about state synchronization, which is more data-intensive.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#174

Post by abandonliberty » Sat, Feb 27, 2021, 12:48 AM UTC

mvanbaak wrote: post #34

capableweb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with statements like "I happily use Matrix but my grandma will not, ever, not in this world" is that Matrix is more of a protocol than anything. So of course, your gradma would never use HTTP, but since browsers are now user friendly enough, everyone is using HTTP indirectly. Same can (will? Might?) happen with Matrix, where a popular applications get written on top of Matrix, and users don't even need to…

And when a popular application get written, it will become the next walled garden. whatsapp uses xmpp. whatsapp became a closed system. PerfectClientXInTheFuture uses matrix. PerfectClientXInTheFuture becomes a closed system. Why? Because that way they can make more money. It's sad, but true.

We need to move beyond being saddened by the nature of systems. It's like being sad about gravity, evolution, or the speed of light. Network effects, social/cultural-scale and emergent behavior are the same.

If your design is subject to a failure, it's a failure of your design.

This is an empowering viewpoint. Let's stop blaming factors outside our control and find ways to create resiliency.

The problem is when a bunch of optimistic, altruistic, talented individuals just imagine we could choose to do better, like in the social dilemma. Similar environments and pressures will lead to similar outcome, like carcinization.

Somehow we still manage to be surprised and disappointed when this happens.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#175

Post by nuker » Sat, Feb 27, 2021, 1:18 AM UTC

Hammershaft wrote: post #69

nuker wrote: post #30

> The origin of mail were a couple of geeks who wanted to exchange messages on ARPANET No, Inventor Of Email is this guy en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_Ayyadurai

Unfortunately that guy is a hack who pretended to have developed email to boost his credibility and now spends his days releasing videos using cherry picked and debunked statistics to claim the election was fraudulent.

You missed capital /S in my post

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#176

Post by harry8 » Sat, Feb 27, 2021, 2:19 AM UTC

I wonder if signal ever really came under serious attack whether Moxie has a plan he's sitting on to decentralise it with its existing userbase?

Of course people want to use these things with their phone. That's kind of 99.999% of the point. Apple and Goog have shown they control what the general population runs on their phone. Any doubt about their ability and willingness to unilaterally enforce that without due process and without even a full and thorough justification at a moment's notice has been removed along with parler from the app/play store. The sudden change in censorship stand in line with the democrats views happened exactly when it became clear the democrats were going to have control.

They're coming for signal and will use domestic terrorism as the wrapping paper. There might be also some "think of the children" and "Isis terrorism" involved so be sure to be ready to be accused of being a sympathiser white supremacist, islamic terrorist, pedo is if you like your messaging private /because/ you /must/ have something to hide! (From people who work at a building that celebrates J. Edgar Hoover - how could you want to hide anything from them?)

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#177

Post by Craighead » Sat, Feb 27, 2021, 3:06 AM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #176

I wonder if signal ever really came under serious attack whether Moxie has a plan he's sitting on to decentralise it with its existing userbase? Of course people want to use these things with their phone. That's kind of 99.999% of the point. Apple and Goog have shown they control what the general population runs on their phone. Any doubt about their ability and willingness to unilaterally enforce that without due pro…

Oh no! The application and service used to attempt to coup the government was banned? What ever will happen to the free world now!?

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#178

Post by Marsymars » Sat, Feb 27, 2021, 3:19 AM UTC

CJefferson wrote: post #75

GekkePrutser wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your mother in law can't even pick a username and password, how will she shop on Amazon, sign up with Google, book a flight? Most other mobile apps require you to sign up for an account too. And it bypasses the big problem of having to use your phone number (though you can already add it if you want for people to easily find you!) In regards to the UX of Elements, I think it's not great either but it's not the onl…

Amazon doesn't have a username, it uses your email. Also, it doesn't give you a choice of "which amazon to sign up with", with 3 options.

Though if you go to amazon., the accounts are sometimes, depending on TLD, entirely separate from your normal amazon, even if the site is in the same language and looks basically the same.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#179

Post by Marsymars » Sat, Feb 27, 2021, 3:26 AM UTC

perryizgr8 wrote: post #62

tchalla wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am heavily against switching from WhatsApp to Signal, I'm curious - what are your arguments against the switch?

I dunno about cheph, but I feel Signal and Whatsapp are identical. There is literally no difference between the products in any way. In fact Whatsapp has some extra features on it.

Asides what the other user said about metadata, Signal is drastically better at multi-device support. WhatsApp only lets you log in one non-phone device at a time, and this device syncs via your phone so it doesn’t work if your phone is offline, and it doesn’t have an iPadOS app. Signal has desktop and iPadOS apps, and they all function independently of your phone once set up.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#180

Post by Marsymars » Sat, Feb 27, 2021, 3:33 AM UTC

alexmingoia wrote: post #57

patrickaljord wrote: post #14

The problem with WhatsApp and Signal is that even though it's e2e, it uses your phone number as id which is the least privacy friendly id they could have picked.

It’s also impractical for digital nomads like myself who don’t use phone numbers at all. I haven’t used Signal, but what do I do if every X months I have a new phone number? Will it still work if I swap SIM cards?

Not having a stable phone number seems impractical in general. (e.g. You can’t set up 2FA for Apple or Google accounts without a phone number.)

More practical is porting a regular number to a SIP service so that you can receive important things via app. (2FA short codes typically don’t work with numbers that are assigned to SIP providers, but work fine you you port over a number from a regular carrier.)