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WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

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Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#161

Post by waxpoeticwhy35 »

perryizgr8 wrote: post #62
tchalla wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am heavily against switching from WhatsApp to Signal, I'm curious - what are your arguments against the switch?

I dunno about cheph, but I feel Signal and Whatsapp are identical. There is literally no difference between the products in any way. In fact Whatsapp has some extra features on it.

You are so wrong. Please read up on how far Signal goes to hide your metadata. WhatsApp diarrhoea-shits it's metadata to Facebook's hungry mouth. Signal goes to such lengths even gifs are implemented so carefully as to preserve user privacy and security.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#162

Post by didibus »

dpatterbee wrote: post #35
CJefferson wrote: post #11

I really sympathise with this point of view, but when it comes to messaging with family and friends, I just don't really care. Matrix seems to want to be an IRC replacement rather than a one-to-one / small-group chat app. That's fine, but often not what I want. Teaching my mother in law to use Signal: Install. Accept permissions. Choose a PIN. I can send you messages. You can see your friends who already use Signal.…

I get what you're saying, but you seem to just be criticising element, not matrix. All of these are temporary problems which can be overcome with more time to hone the user experience. I would love to see another company come along and make another matrix-based chat app to compete with element, hopefully that would result in them both getting better much quicker.

The thing is criticizing Element is a criticism on Matrix. Interoperable protocols always also make it much harder to build a very usable client for. Even the great email is being "disrupted" with new closed alternatives like Slack, Discord, Teams, etc.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#163

Post by dvdgsng »

CJefferson wrote: post #11

I really sympathise with this point of view, but when it comes to messaging with family and friends, I just don't really care. Matrix seems to want to be an IRC replacement rather than a one-to-one / small-group chat app. That's fine, but often not what I want. Teaching my mother in law to use Signal: Install. Accept permissions. Choose a PIN. I can send you messages. You can see your friends who already use Signal.…

Or she could use OAuth with an existing login from Google, Apple, Facebook or even Github and Gitlab, if she fancies that more.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#164

Post by rakoo »

upofadown wrote: post #126
CJefferson wrote: post #11

I really sympathise with this point of view, but when it comes to messaging with family and friends, I just don't really care. Matrix seems to want to be an IRC replacement rather than a one-to-one / small-group chat app. That's fine, but often not what I want. Teaching my mother in law to use Signal: Install. Accept permissions. Choose a PIN. I can send you messages. You can see your friends who already use Signal.…

>Install. Accept permissions. Choose a PIN. I can send you messages. You can see your friends who already use Signal. Well done! Sure but that does not in any way take away from the point that siloed messengers are a bad idea. If the XMPP/Matrix people wanted to they could set up a trusted third party server to link identities to phone numbers just like Signal does. They could even claim to use some sort of hardware…

> If the XMPP/Matrix people wanted to they could set up a trusted third party server to link identities to phone numbers just like Signal does

Signal is even simpler: they use the phone number as the identifier. So you could have an XMPP server with a given domain, and your phone number as your login. The whole SMS dance for making sure you own the number.

That already exists: https://quicksy.im/. And yet it doesn't seem to have attracted that many people. I don't think it was an issue of usability though, it is not so far from Signal, but a publicity one.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#165

Post by networkimprov »

paulcarroty wrote: post #154
networkimprov wrote: post #47

See also TMTP, from the mnm project. Its stated goal is to replace SMTP & IMAP. https://mnmnotmail.org https://twitter.com/mnmnotmail

> You’ll need an invitation to a TMTP service. Nice step for SMTP & IMAP alternative.

You have to be a member of an organization that provides you with a TMTP account. Email is the same.

I'm working on a live demo that runs from the website. Follow me on twitter to hear when it's available.

https://twitter.com/mnmnotmail

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#166

Post by sanderjd »

sceox wrote: post #143
mixedCase wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure but that does not in any way take away from the point that siloed messengers are a bad idea. Well, too bad! Usability trumps idealism when network effects are at play. > If the XMPP/Matrix people wanted to they could set up a trusted third party server to link identities to phone numbers just like Signal does Usability is so bad that you're defending Matrix and don't even know this is already available, just h…

Because Matrix allows any number of clients to be made, it's entirely possible for one client to do the things you list at the same time as other clients don't for the reasons you mention. If I had to guess, it won't be Element, it will be a new client preconfigured to some (not matrix.org) server.

But why would anyone do it? What is the incentive to invest the resources into building an application with a good UX? This is why businesses win: aligned incentives.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#167

Post by zaik »

luplex wrote: post #3

Matrix is eating the world of messengers. I'm very bullish on the protocol. There hasn't yet been a lot of thought around the economic incentives of matrix, like who is supposed to run a Homeserver?

If you believe the account of [0] then running a Matrix server is much more costly than running a XMPP server.

[0] https://wiki.404.city/en/XMPP_vs_Matrix

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#168

Post by z77dj3kl »

cassepipe wrote: post #10

The reason why Signal is not an open protocol like email has been argumented by Signal creator Moxie before (can't find the article please help). It has pros (evolution is faster and thus it's easier to compete with proprietary solutions) and cons (single point of failure) and Signal devs are well aware of that. We should stop acting like Matrix and Signal are competing with each other. I happily use Matrix but my gr…

> Signal is not an open protocol

It is an open protocol, it is not a federated protocol.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#169

Post by ggm »

CJefferson wrote: post #75
GekkePrutser wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your mother in law can't even pick a username and password, how will she shop on Amazon, sign up with Google, book a flight? Most other mobile apps require you to sign up for an account too. And it bypasses the big problem of having to use your phone number (though you can already add it if you want for people to easily find you!) In regards to the UX of Elements, I think it's not great either but it's not the onl…

Amazon doesn't have a username, it uses your email. Also, it doesn't give you a choice of "which amazon to sign up with", with 3 options.

Amazon would happily make multiple accounts with the same email. I've managed this twice. Unwinding it is somewhat complex.

"Oh yeah, you think your id is the mail. Well.. it isn't"

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#170

Post by messo »

spurgu wrote: post #84
ezst wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> _why_ communication has moved away from email Has it, though? I don't think we are any step closer now to dropping email than we were 25 years ago. > or why XMPP/IRC never really caught on despite being vastly older than these app competitors Could be the lack of marketing (because there isn't a corporation or venture capital money behind benefiting from exponential user base growth) and critical mass/peer-pressure…

>> _why_ communication has moved away from email > Has it, though? I don't think we are any step closer now to dropping email than we were 25 years ago. Email feels more like a tool for reaching out than for communicating to me. I.e. it serves like an RSS feed and serves like a way for unknowns (or long lost friends/acquaintances) to reach out to you. Sure some people still use newsgroups and communicate daily over e…

The email protocol is being used for instant messaging — check out DeltaChat. It works much better than I expected, and it is possibly the most desentralized solution there is.
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