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Mars Is No Earth

theatlantic.com

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Re: Mars Is No Earth

#71

Post by qayxc »

alexvoda wrote: post #65
qayxc wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the adoption of electric cars and other electric transportation will help the entire world population by reducing air pollution and climate change. This one tired old argument again. While reducing air pollution is a plus (at least in city centres), electric cars are nothing but green washing. If you really are concerned about climate change and pollution, reduce the need for cars and own no car. Abandon Euclidian-…

The role that can achieve those goals is not antrepreneour but politician or beaurocrat. Just because someone has proven to be a high achiever does not mean you get to retroactively choose what career they should have had. Put in the actual work yourself instead of shifting the blame on others for not enacting the changes you desire. Note: I agree all the issues you listed (mostly city life related) are real importan…

I understand that it's not Musk's job to fix these issues. I just take issue with his (and especially his devout followers') claims that electric cars are any sort of "fix" apart from air pollution in densely populated areas. They're a band-aid at most.

By the way Musk did and still does claim to provide "fixes" for these problems: tunnels, hyperloops, and point-to-point rocket flights, because "I would love to see my customers in Riyadh, leave in the morning and be back in time to make dinner" - you know, as one does. [1]

The thinking there isn't visionary at all - it's good old 20th (or even 19th) century thinking with 21st century tech applied to them. I mean - why even fly all the way to Riyadh in the first place if you could instead improve tele-presence to the point that physically going there doesn't make much difference anymore?

> Put in the actual work yourself instead of shifting the blame on others for not enacting the changes you desire.

First of all - cheap shot, especially since it's not me who declares that electric cars are the solution to pollution and climate change and it's not me who advocates for personal lifts into underground tunnels under every home to fix traffic. Secondly - I don't own a car and take the bike, the bus and the train instead. I live by my principles, even if it hurts sometimes. What about you?

[1] https://www.ted.com/talks/gwynne_shotwell_spacex_s_plan_to_f...

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#72

Post by TeMPOraL »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #16
iab wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take your point; I think maybe this line of discourse is to prevent the "savior" line of thinking, whereby all manner of ills will be addressed by technological advancement, and the day-to-day drudgery of improving our current situation is lessened. The aspirational nature of it is - of course - grand, but maybe a more inward, introspective, look at our current situation would be better in the long-term.

See I think exploring space IS understanding ourselves just like exploring our biology is. We've been doing the "spiritualism self understanding" thing for 100,000 years and it's just let to wars, virgin sacrifices, and other dumb human outcomes. It's not even clear what "understanding ourselves" means. I'd argue that Science has led to more enlightenment and improvement of the human condition than spiritualism ever…

> We've been doing the "spiritualism self understanding" thing for 100,000 years and it's just let to wars, virgin sacrifices, and other dumb human outcomes.

Indeed. At some point, if you stare inwards hard enough, you just end up divining patterns in a random number generator.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#73

Post by TeMPOraL »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #52
Valgrim wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I'd like to see his enthusiasm more focused toward space megastructures, such as O'Neill Cylinders and Dyson Swarms. It seems to me that humanity would benefit a lot more from mastering industrial-scale manufacturing and construction in space than sticking ourselves in another large gravity well.

That's basically Bezos's vision. Well Bezos's vision is to move manufacturing off of Earth and into Space, turning Earth into a gigantic park.

  Breaking free of gravity, moving industry
  Beyond the planet's surface into space
  Lunar mines and factories, Lagrange Point colonies
  Total productivity and nothing goes to waste
  Solar-sailing ships deployed to mine the asteroids
  While Earth becomes a paradise, her ugly scars erased
Let's sing along: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab_mH8R0KTM (lyrics: https://genius.com/Julia-ecklar-one-way-to-go-lyrics).

So reach for the stars, they're not that far! The only way to go from here is out!.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#74

Post by TeMPOraL »

munificent wrote: post #62
netsec_burn wrote: post #4

Yet? It seems the writer is debating a view that Elon doesn't have. His goal is to begin the process of making Mars habitable, I'm not aware of anyone with the position that Mars is currently as nice as Earth. Terraforming Mars is a long term vision and not one we'll see in our lifetimes. If we don't take steps towards achieving that goal then of course it will always seem lofty. Martian greenhouses may sooner emulat…

> Terraforming Mars is a long term vision and not one we'll see in our lifetimes. If you define "terraforming" as "engineering a planet for safe long-term mass human habitation", I would really rather we focus our terraforming efforts on Earth. We're currently not doing a great job at that and it's a several orders of magnitude easier problem.

Why not both? You get to build up knowledge on planetary engineering in parallel and create survival technologies to hedge against us failing to regulate climate and create a long-term backup for humanity.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#75

Post by TeMPOraL »

qayxc wrote: post #71
alexvoda wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The role that can achieve those goals is not antrepreneour but politician or beaurocrat. Just because someone has proven to be a high achiever does not mean you get to retroactively choose what career they should have had. Put in the actual work yourself instead of shifting the blame on others for not enacting the changes you desire. Note: I agree all the issues you listed (mostly city life related) are real importan…

I understand that it's not Musk's job to fix these issues. I just take issue with his (and especially his devout followers') claims that electric cars are any sort of "fix" apart from air pollution in densely populated areas. They're a band-aid at most. By the way Musk did and still does claim to provide "fixes" for these problems: tunnels, hyperloops, and point-to-point rocket flights, because "I would love to see m…

> I just take issue with his (and especially his devout followers') claims that electric cars are any sort of "fix" apart from air pollution in densely populated areas. They're a band-aid at most.

Oh come on. Electric cars are a fix, just not a total fix. Cars are going to be replaced by new cars anyway, and replacing them with electric instead of ICE is strictly, objectively better for the climate problem, as it cuts emissions down and increases energy efficiency. Would it be better if we had less cars and more public transit? Sure. It's also a completely orthogonal problem. Also, what would be even better than more of current public transit? Fully electrified public transit. That is a possibility now only because of development done for electric cars.

I'm reminded of "Copenhagen Interpretation of Morality" - the view that if you as much as touch or comment on an issue, or worse, try to do something towards fixing a part of it, you suddenly become responsible for it all, and judged by not coming up with a complete solution.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#76

Post by TeMPOraL »

andrewfromx wrote: post #68
alexvoda wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, because we can take our time and plan and research and try and fail how to operate in mars hellscape level B. When earth hellscape level A happens there will be no more time left to prepare.

ah yes, the political will to do this to earth is not there.

Yup. And unlike on Earth, getting self-sustained settlements on Mars to work is actually within the motivations of at least some people with resources - which makes it a perfect way to develop technologies we need on Earth to hedge against catastrophes, but that we otherwise won't develop because it's not immediately profitable.

This alone is a reason to support the space program. The excitement and curiosity it taps into gives us an opportunity to fund science and technologies we need longer-term, that are otherwise unfundable.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#77

Post by vagrantJin »

iab wrote: post #44
vagrantJin wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you imagine going back 500 years and telling the Kings of the world in their courts - with a straight face- that man in the future will send humans to the moon. And he will get there, take pictures, ride around a moon buggy, and come back safe and sound. Not only will you be drawn and quartered for blaspheming, some might just kill you out of pity. The poor mad thing. Today a 7 year old can say that with as much…

I think the issue is that we face truly existential environmental crises in the near-to-mid term, which has not been the predominant cause of strife for our history thus far (world wars, the thread of nuclear exchanges, etc.). So it is hard to say it is impossible, but it is even harder to say that it will be achievable.

> existential environmental crises in the near-to-mid term,

Nah. This just comes off as alarmist.

We might accelerate a naturally occuring process ever so slightly but it is by no means an exinction event. You underestimate the homo sapiens ability to adapt to their surroundings. Berbers live in deserts, eskimo in ice tundra - arguably the very extremes of human habitats. You can throw everything at them short of a super volcano really. When the polluters have to pay the piper - they'll get their just desserts. Unfortunately a world war for resources isnt out of the question. We're not even close to that yet. Not when Apple Inc is still the most valuable company in the world.

What I hate is the destruction of millenia year old forests and the biology that inhabits it. That's just driven by mindless greed when fucking Doritos is more important than the home of the last wild jungle elephants or 2 millenia old trees just cut with impunity. Not to mention the people to whom those forests are holy land and home.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#78

Post by nickthemagicman »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #26
staticman2 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your genes might compel you to try to leave the planet and keep mating after our sun dies, but our species will inevitably be dead once entropy kicks in at the heat death of the universe. Ultimately we are going to go extinct and there is no point to the colonization scheme other than delusions of grandeur.

By this logic, there's no point to anything.

Existentialist like Sartre would agree with you! They also propose a solution, that meaning is created not inherent.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#79

Post by sdht0 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #25

> Someone in his position could do so many things on our little blue dot itself to help those in need. She's talking about the man who accelerated our transition to electric cars by years, who is significantly lowering the cost and acceptability of solar power, is enabling the transition of the grid to renewables through the Tesla Megapacks, is pouring billions into battery R&D which will be critical to a green trans…

Not to forget the push for universal satellite-based internet.

Re: Mars Is No Earth

#80

Post by nickthemagicman »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #72
nickthemagicman wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See I think exploring space IS understanding ourselves just like exploring our biology is. We've been doing the "spiritualism self understanding" thing for 100,000 years and it's just let to wars, virgin sacrifices, and other dumb human outcomes. It's not even clear what "understanding ourselves" means. I'd argue that Science has led to more enlightenment and improvement of the human condition than spiritualism ever…

> We've been doing the "spiritualism self understanding" thing for 100,000 years and it's just let to wars, virgin sacrifices, and other dumb human outcomes. Indeed. At some point, if you stare inwards hard enough, you just end up divining patterns in a random number generator.

Yeah, the harsh truth is that we've developed a part of the brain that makes us good with tools but other than that we're one step away from chimps. All of our desires for mating, hierarchy, tribalism, and status are the same. Very primitive instincts.

Any consideration that there's depth to the majority of human beings beyond sophisticated pursuit of Mating or Resources is completely delusional.

Some, very few people, have vision, but the grand majority are just existing in the four F's of survival (myself included, I'm no Elon Musk or Jobs or Einstein or Pasteur).

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