Live data from Hacker News

Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

npr.org

351–360 of 734 posts

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#351

How can an app track activities in other apps? Is it only possible if those other apps use the same tracking networks, or can the app track activities in _any_ other app? How does this work? What can facebook extract today? (I'm surprised a bit, i thought phones offer app isolation). The only things that comes to mind is to correlate device ids from different apps if the apps use the same analytics/advertising networ…

I'd also like insight into this. Are apps still not isolated enough for this?

Is this more due to FB dragnet network analytics that they can put enough data together that it doesn't matter if you isolate the app?

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#352
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ex-smoker here. So, what do you advocate? Reward smokers? Encourage smoking?

Perhaps we should advocate consistency. Either shaming and punishment works to discourage unwanted behaviour or it doesn't. If it does, then perhaps we should start shaming obese people and crack addicts. P.S. Before the downvotes come, I'm rather fat and a mostly ex-smoker, so I'm not attacking obese people, just wondering at the inconsistency.

I think the two are not quite equivalent. Smoking is the action, while obesity is the condition. The equivalent would be shaming smokers for getting cancer or shaming obese people for overeating (to nitpickers: yes, this is a simplification).

The main difference seems to be that smoking in public inflicts secondhand smoke on others, while obesity inflicts... taking up more room on public transit? IF shaming is effective at curbing public smoking, and there is no shaming for smoking in private, then I think you could have a logically consistent position.

I don't know if the first of those is true, and the second definitely isn't (although maybe a different level of intensity), so I'm not saying there is consistency, just that it's possible.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

could you provide some examples beyond the “walled garden” of the iOS platform?

Every time you turn iPhone on it prompts to sign in to who knows what min 4x in a row.

I have never experienced this. Care to be more specific?

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple just wants to be exclusive gateway to Apple customers. We are a product to both companies, even if Apple appears the lesser evil.

Apple's incentives appear aligned with their customers. Facebook's are completely opposed.

I disagree. Apple's incentives is to make everybody that has an iPhone pay for apps instead of using advertising supported apps, essentially making things more expensive for the customers.

You can think of it as a common. Blocking tracking essentially is a destruction of a bit of commons; the app developer will get less revenue. By systematically encouraging this block, Apple is making it comparatively less worthwhile to have an ad-supported app instead of a paid app, thus moving revenue to the app store (where Apple can tax it) instead of the advertising side (where it is monetarily free for the user.)

If we really wanted to find out what is right for the user[1], the correct thing is to see if users want to buy their way out of tracking. Offer the apps with advertising with tracking, with advertising without tracking, and without advertising - at different prices, representing the value of the advertising and tracking. My bet is that a majority of users would not want to pay the cost of non-tracked advertising - either they'll want to buy away advertising (and that will only be a small fraction) or they'll want the free variant. Basically, all data I've seen indicate that most people don't want to buy their way out of advertising - it's too expensive. I expect the same applies to tracking.

[1] Under the assumption that we've got an efficient market and will see an equilibrium of development that correspond to value created.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#355
post #330

I wonder what would happen if FB and Google went a step further and decided to give Apple the Windows Phone (or Huawei) treatment, by pulling all their apps from the App Store, citing these changes as the reason they can't support Apple's platform. I'm not sure the majority of iOS devices users would be happy with any of the involved parties, and that includes Apple.

I'd be thrilled.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#356
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, you literally are Apple’s product to their iOS developer ecosystem, in the sense that developers fork over 30% of their revenue to Apple for access to you.

On one hand, it's argued that Apple has an incentive to act against their customers because they want to sell apps on the app store. On the other hand, it's argued that Apple doesn't care about their developers because they enforce draconian regulations on what iOS developers are allowed and not allowed to do, and don't hesitate even to shut down billion dollar apps (i.e., Fortnite). I have mixed feelings about Apple…

We just need to look at how they handled the San Bernadino shooting and requests for a phone unlock to find a supposed "lying dormant cyber pathogen".

Every other company would have been falling over themselves to unlock a terrorists iPhone.

Apple said no, hired Ted Olsen, and litigated (along with lots of other less well known cases).

This may have even hurt them in some consumers eyes (hard to understand them protecting someone who killed a bunch of people). So the PR risk was very significant.

So they do seem to have a pretty committed consumer focus (and now make money because of that).

It is virtually inevitable though that someone will go after them (anti-trust etc) because this is a game of billions and folks who for example do in-game loot boxes (fortnite) and marketing (facebook) etc are going to be in regulators ears and in ny times ads and op-eds calling for this horrible situation to be broken up.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#357
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote, but "It doesn't matter if it's true, It's bad that I'm concerned" is used to justify all sorts of alarmist policies. Right now that's what's being used to restrict voting rights across the US and has been used for a long time to justify NIMBY and tough on crime policies regardless of evidence.

There are differences between these scenarios. In one case we have an individual who made a personal decision that does not affect anyone else. The contrary examples are of people imposing their will upon others to restrict the rights of others. There is very little one should do about the beliefs of others, regardless of what the evidence supports, unless it affects the rights of others.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#358
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why this is getting down-voted, but I think the point here is the _fact_ that you have been put in a situation where, as an individual, you are concerned enough to do this is telling, crazy or not

You are right on - the fact that I even needed to think about whether I should have to be concerned with it is where I was headed. Devices do listen to all sounds to listen for their "prompt" - how do I know what is actually discarded? And with precedence, I don't think it is 'crazy'. Example: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/25/614470096...

Anybody that doesn’t know the code their device is running is a fool to trust it by default. Even knowing the code well, devices are compromised all the time. Yours seems like the lone sane opinion here.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a nice bit of semantic ju-jitsu to say "they take this data and sell a service that wouldn't be possible without it" isn't the same as "selling this data," isn't it? Especially given that the targeting mechanisms don't have any k-anonymity guarantees, and I'm aware of at least one paper showing information leaks through the ad portal [1] https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_events/122...

Seems to me like you're more playing "semantic ju-jitsu" than OP. Facebook collect data to sell targetted adspace, they do not sell data. This is a plain fact.

> This is a plain fact.

A plain fact that requires looking realistically at how colloquialisms are used combined with a little bit of technical know how. How many businesses do you know actually "sell data"? The only market I can think of are companies like Zoominfo. Outside of that there really aren't that many companies that "sell your data". However, you'll see a ton of social justice campaigns against "stop companies selling your data". They aren't going after Zoominfo, they're going after Facebook.

Does facebook capture data? Yes.

Do they literally take that data and sell it byte for byte to other people? No.

Is that data absolutely necessary to sell their products or services? Yes.

So, in effect, its easier to say to the common person "they're selling your data" than "they're harvesting their data so they can sell products and services". Facebook is trying to defend itself in the public eye by responding to this slogan - not by the real factor that matters.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#360
post #342

Apple should be applauded for this. Their revenue does not depend on software to clandestinely steal and sell users data. One day, we will look back at history and see facebook similar as to how people view myspace now (junkyard of software). Good on Apple not selling devices with a facebook backdoor in them. I know apple probably has deals with malicious governments regarding data access, but at least they are stand…

One of my coworkers shared an interesting thought with me the other day. Apple is positioning itself as The Privacy Company today, but they've benefited immensely from the attention economy over the last 15 years. They would not have sold as many millions of iPhones, iPods (heck, even Macbooks) in the last decade, if Instagram & Facebook weren't there to suck people in to their platform (clearly, the same is true for…

I doubt the iPhone's long-term success was dictated by Facebook et al whoring out user data. There are plenty of useful apps that don't hinge on violating the privacy of users.
Post reply on HN