The Framework Laptop • Hacker News Board

Re: The Framework Laptop

#941

Post by dakial1 » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

gburdell3 wrote: post #538

nkrisc wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For whatever reason, I've never used a laptop that wasn't a MacBook that has had a trackpad anywhere as amazing as what Apple has done. I don't know if the problem is hardware, software, or both, but as a consumer I don't care. I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one that has a trackpad as good or better. That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be…

It has to be software. I have a ThinkPad that I recently installed macOS on (not advocating hackintosh, but it's a fun project nonetheless) and the trackpad feels every bit as good as a real Mac. Smooth scrolling, smooth gesture recognition, everything just feels good. The hardware is capable of processing the gestures, but the non-Apple software just does a terrible job of making it feel good to use.

It it software. As they did to ios, the MacOs has highest priority to all interface actions.That's why the scrolling on ios and MacOs is usually very smooth. The interface get the highest priority so if the computer is struggling with lots of simulaneous processes, the interface still will feel smooth. Very smart solution to prioritize UX. Why they didn't do the same on windows/android? No idea.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#942

Post by jaegerpicker » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

vagrantJin wrote: post #913

Toutouxc wrote: post #865

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's the fanboyism in that? They were commenting on a post about how most PC touchpads suck and that for some people a great touchpad is a requirement, the absence of which would prevent them from buying other laptops, such as the Framework Laptop.

> for some people a great touchpad is a requirement, The touchpad. Nothing else. Just the touchpad? I'm not given to hyperbole but methinks there's a lot of info and technical requirements that go into purchasing an expensive item such as a laptop. Screen size and quality, keyboard quality, ports, batter life, weight, performance, looks - oh you know...normal stuff. At least for us normal people. Maybe my mistake was…

Where did he say that was the ONLY requirement? It's possibly the most important for him but unlikely to be the only requirement.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#943

Post by pwdisswordfish0 » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

nkrisc wrote: post #474

throwaway894345 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the first issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop ecosystem. EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I want a nice PC laptop because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even the high end trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-installed Windows (never mind the eternal sadness that is Linux trackpad configuration).

For whatever reason, I've never used a laptop that wasn't a MacBook that has had a trackpad anywhere as amazing as what Apple has done. I don't know if the problem is hardware, software, or both, but as a consumer I don't care. I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one that has a trackpad as good or better. That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be…

The hardware + software configuration for the majority of touchpads I've used on Chromebooks are on par or better than MacBook touchpads. It's just that people pretend they don't exist, whether in consumer complaints comparing MacBooks to everything else, or by the people responsible for freedesktop-based software who themselves continue purchasing terrible hardware and keep the software (drivers, userspace apps, etc) in the same sad state that it's always been in instead of copying what's happening with Chromebooks.

Look at Firefox for an example of the latter. I'm typing this on a Chromebook intended to run ChromeOS, but it's actually running Ubuntu. The touchpad experience from the factory is as good as it should be. When you wipe the machine and install Ubuntu and use Chrome, it's still pretty good. Running Firefox on the same system gives you its same janky scroll behavior that you get anywhere else that isn't a MacBook, for no good reason.

People act like there's some yet-to-be-understood law of nature that make MacBook touchpads good and everything else bad. This is demonstrably false. We have existence proofs to the contrary.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#944

Post by rchaud » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

wongarsu wrote: post #876

rchaud wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that true for the premium laptops? I worked at my school's help desk and yes, Dell parts and service manuals were plentiful, but usually for bulky Inspiron and Latitude budget laptops. The ones with ugly screens, wacky trackpads and replaceable batteries. It's been a while since I was in that world, but Dell makes some mighty nice looking machinery these days, but it doesn't look particularly repairable.

XPS are still very repairable. Not as nice as Latitude, but for example replaceing the battery or upgrading RAM only requires unscrewing the bottom (held on by about a dozen torx screws).

good to know, thanks!

Re: The Framework Laptop

#945

Post by jaegerpicker » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 5:29 PM UTC

SeanLuke wrote: post #510

reaperducer wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my point is that most tasks are either ① best done in a good text editing / development environment Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most" with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely popular indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should not impose your choices upon others with different needs. would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device Show me a be…

> Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can use to rotate objects on a screen. Or zoom into a specific object without affecting other objects on a screen. I agree with you in general, but a trackpad is in fact really, truly horrible for these tasks. As humans we are designed to rotate objects precisely, and that design does not involve using two fingers to slide about arbitrary locations on a flat plane.…

If you haven't looked at them before take a look at 3D mice. Commonly used in 3D modeling and CAD drafting they are the best at interacting with items in 3D space but I wouldn't actually like one for text/flat image interaction. Mapping 3D movements to a flat plane is less intuitive than it may seem if you haven't done it. Most the 3D professionals I know use a touchpad or regular mouse for 99% of the non-3D usage.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#946

Post by pwdisswordfish0 » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

enw wrote: post #811

nkrisc wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For whatever reason, I've never used a laptop that wasn't a MacBook that has had a trackpad anywhere as amazing as what Apple has done. I don't know if the problem is hardware, software, or both, but as a consumer I don't care. I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one that has a trackpad as good or better. That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be…

I'm guessing a big reason why it has never been prioritized is due to the difficulty of quantifying the impact of great trackpad UX (and as a result, the negative impact of the shitty trackpad UX every non-Apple device offers). Higher-ups don't like things that aren't easily quantified.

Fan noise is the same. I bought a machine from a Linux laptop vendor. At the time of purchase, I raised my concerns about the risk of ultimately ending up disappointed when it arrived (particularly how pricey it was). They insisted that I would be happy, and that it would be much better than my 5 year old laptop that I was replacing.

Not only was that not the case, it was worse than my own pessimism that I started with.

The fan noise and the trackpad were so bad to the point that it felt like a joke, even though I knew it wasn't. People are just oblivious to this stuff and march onward none the wiser, even the people who should be doing things like comparative analysis on quality against their competitors' products.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#947

Post by jaegerpicker » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

boogies wrote: post #539

reaperducer wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve previously used a normal Apple Magic mouse and keyboard to do all of these things If you've used a Magic Mouse, then you've used a mouse with a trackpad on its back. Glad you liked it! And no, rotating in Photoshop with the keyboard isn't the same as rotating with a trackpad. It's an entirely different process that is significantly less efficient, unless you already know the exact angle of rotation you want down…

> If you've used a Magic Mouse, then you've used a mouse with a trackpad on its back. Glad you liked it! My mistake. I used a standard Apple mouse ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Mighty_Mouse ). I used its clickable scroll ball and squeeze functionality and suspect I would dislike the Magic mouse. > And no, rotating in Photoshop with the keyboard isn't the same as rotating with a trackpad. It's an entirely diff…

Have three graphics tablets, while they are FAR superior for art work they are not at all better for rotation. In fact I use blender on Mac and regularly use the trackpad to zoom and rotate because it's far more precise. Similar for 2D drawing, my favorite 2D environment is the iPad Pro and Apple Pencil. I still rotate with two finger gestures.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#948

Post by samstave » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

PascLeRasc wrote: post #781

samstave wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dud, when I rebuilt Lucas Films into the presidio (I was one of the tech designers on that project) - they had so many SGI systems... they built Keg-arrators out of $150,000 machines in moving. One small note on SGI - the 02 had a "feature' that cost you ~$2500 extra for access to a particular port - can recall if it was USB or Serial or what not, but you had to pay for this port... But this port was just blocked by…

Was it analog video? I worked with a guy who loved SGI systems and still had some back in 2016 and he said they made analog video an option, but it was the same A/V add-on card as analog audio so they just glued plastic caps over the video ports if you didn't opt for it.

Lucas was the inventor of "offline video editing" -- which became a spin-off company called Avid.

Avid was later based in seattle - but it was based on tech that LucasFilm invented - as was CG rendering called "the death star" which Steve Jobs bought from George for $10,000,000 and turned it into pixar.

George didnt think that CGI was going to be profitable, hence selling to Jobs.

Source: on the Presidio design team, I designed a majority of their data center in that facility - and had designed a cable interconnect matrix with the design requirement that any given workstation in the four-building facility could be made a render node when the engineer was not at desk (so at night)

Lots of crazy experiences from that --

1. being asked why I couldnt provide power over fiber

2. Being asked if I could design a facility in Singapore because paying "us Prima donnas" was too expensive when they could pay asian animators far less for the same work

3. Having see them in-bed with Force 10 networks

4. Seeing all their equipment stolen from the parking garage after delivery but before installation into the data-center by some construction guy

5. Them turning down my initial datacenter design which made it look like the inside of the death star. Telling me they hated it.

6. Watching the power struggle as the then CFO took control of the empire as Lucas stepped away.

7. Watching the distaste of all the employees as Lucas sold for four billion dollars to disney, but his accomplished and skilled staff got basically nothing because they didnt own stock in the company they built for lucas.

Yeah - fuck george lucas.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#949

Post by aksss » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 6:15 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #919

throwaway894345 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the first issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop ecosystem. EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I want a nice PC laptop because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even the high end trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-installed Windows (never mind the eternal sadness that is Linux trackpad configuration).

I honestly don't know how people use PC laptops without an external mouse. It's incredible that the trackpads are still so bad. Can you spend a ton of money on a PC laptop and get a decent one? I have assumed it has been an issue with just using cheap parts, and it being hard to get people to pay for premium parts on PC laptops.

They aren’t that bad, let’s be real. Try the latest XPS 13, the trackpad is more than fine. Maybe not Apple great, but it’s perfectly fine. I could point to earlier makes/models that were fine too. It’s not going to make or break your decision on PC/Mac if you have Apple money to spend on a PC.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#950

Post by craftkiller » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 6:32 PM UTC

lovelyviking wrote: post #841

tomtheelder wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the SD card example encapsulates the issue perfectly. I'm pretty sure that in 2021 that is an _extreme_ niche use case. I feel like only extremely serious photographers and perhaps a particular slice of musicians use them. It makes absolutely no sense for them to have that built into the laptop. 99% of people who own Macbooks or whatever don't own an SD card dongle because they don't need it. However, and ext…

>I think the SD card example encapsulates the issue perfectly It does. Micro-sd-card reader fits even in raspberryPi Zero ... Neglectable "space saving" advantage vs huge usability disadvantage. > The point of a laptop is to strike a balance between portability and usability. I think MacbookPro should be about philosophy of amplifying creative person with power tools for creativity in a portable way. Not a dumb machi…

This looks to satisfy all your requirements from your original post: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1514535-REG/sabrent_c...

Its ~2 cubic inches and doesn't dangle on a cable so you don't need a table/lap.

As for your more detailed post you just linked to:

> Only for that purpose more ports are justified because I would prefer to have 4 at least to connect all 3 iOS devices plus hard_drive for backup etc. If there is additional monitor around that I could use I would love to use it which means I need HDMI/display port.

USB4/thunderbolt 4 allows for type c hubs that also support alt-modes like displayport alt-mode so you can have a small cellphone-sized hub to significantly increase your ports: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08RYZJY8M

> I would also need HDMI/DP/DVI or even VGA port to have external screen connected.

Surely you're not suggesting that laptops built in 2021 should have a VGA port? This is exactly what tomtheelder was referring to when he said:

> I'm pretty sure that in 2021 that is an _extreme_ niche use case [...] 99% of people who own Macbooks or whatever don't own an SD card dongle because they don't need it. However, and extra USB-C port can be used for a multitude of things

Just think of all the extra thickness Apple would be adding to their laptops just to fit a VGA port 99.9% of people would never use.