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The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

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Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#211

Post by boring_twenties »

mikewarot wrote: post #210
mattkevan wrote: post #106

Thing is, in the ‘olden days’, the only thing you could do with a home computer was tinker - the job of a computer was to be a computer but little else. And the number of people interested in doing that was small. Today, the job of a computer is everything. Computers are in everything and do everything. They are our interface to the world. Their value is what they enable - writing, tax returns, video consumption, gam…

>For those of us who want a computer to tinker with, we’ve never had it so good. I disagree to an extent. While the hardware is much, MUCH faster, efficient, reliable.. it isn't something we can tinker with anymore. Would you feel safe picking up a random USB drive and running the programs on it? A huge chunk of the fun of early PCs is gone. You can't just find new stuff and try it out to see how well it works. If it…

> Would you feel safe picking up a random USB drive and running the programs on it?

Sure, why not? Just don't run it on the same computer that you access your sensitive data on. Given that you can buy a fully functional and tinker-friendly computer for like 20 bucks, this seems like a pretty straightforward solution.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#212

Post by boring_twenties »

InvertedRhodium wrote: post #208
ravi-delia wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may well be that internet access in general is an essential utility, though I'd disagree that any device in particular is. However, the fact that the 'two dominant platforms' continue existing is mostly due to people's personal preferences. Besides, saying that Android devices even approach the same level of locked-downness of Apple devices is absurd; I run an open source version of android on all my mobile device…

Does your banking application, Google Pay, and other services that (needlessly) rely on SafetyNet work on that phone?

Not the same guy, but Chase and Fidelity apps work on my LOS devices.

No idea about Google Pay, it's never even occurred to me to try it.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#213

Post by mikewarot »

boring_twenties wrote: post #211
mikewarot wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For those of us who want a computer to tinker with, we’ve never had it so good. I disagree to an extent. While the hardware is much, MUCH faster, efficient, reliable.. it isn't something we can tinker with anymore. Would you feel safe picking up a random USB drive and running the programs on it? A huge chunk of the fun of early PCs is gone. You can't just find new stuff and try it out to see how well it works. If it…

> Would you feel safe picking up a random USB drive and running the programs on it? Sure, why not? Just don't run it on the same computer that you access your sensitive data on. Given that you can buy a fully functional and tinker-friendly computer for like 20 bucks, this seems like a pretty straightforward solution.

You could spend $20, but then never trust that computer again... it gets expensive, even at $20/pop... when it used to be the time to copy a floppy.

It really isn't the same. You always have to worry these days.

It's similar to the fact that going into a crowd was no big deal in the past, but now it is.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#214

Post by boring_twenties »

mikewarot wrote: post #213
boring_twenties wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you feel safe picking up a random USB drive and running the programs on it? Sure, why not? Just don't run it on the same computer that you access your sensitive data on. Given that you can buy a fully functional and tinker-friendly computer for like 20 bucks, this seems like a pretty straightforward solution.

You could spend $20, but then never trust that computer again... it gets expensive, even at $20/pop... when it used to be the time to copy a floppy. It really isn't the same. You always have to worry these days. It's similar to the fact that going into a crowd was no big deal in the past, but now it is.

Why $20/pop? Just reuse the same untrusted computer for all untrusted things?

Not to mention, sticking random floppies in your main computer was never exactly safe to begin with. The heydey of the Michaelangelo virus was 1991, if memory serves.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#215

Post by mikewarot »

boring_twenties wrote: post #214
mikewarot wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could spend $20, but then never trust that computer again... it gets expensive, even at $20/pop... when it used to be the time to copy a floppy. It really isn't the same. You always have to worry these days. It's similar to the fact that going into a crowd was no big deal in the past, but now it is.

Why $20/pop? Just reuse the same untrusted computer for all untrusted things? Not to mention, sticking random floppies in your main computer was never exactly safe to begin with. The heydey of the Michaelangelo virus was 1991, if memory serves.

>Why $20/pop? Just reuse the same untrusted computer for all untrusted things?

Because the hardware could have something planted in it... and if what you're tinkering with turns out to be useful, then what? Then you have to spend $20 for another computer that you can trust with that one little thing.

Yes, in the days of MS-DOS, there were virii spread by floppy disk, but those could be guarded against fairly easily. You could always start fresh with a clean copy of your OS and use it to clean up the mess.

A better way is to have an OS that protects the hardware, and itself. Then you can have a single computer for everything, without having to trust any piece of application code, ever.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#216

Post by mikewarot »

randcraw wrote: post #122
wayneftw wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I love the fact I don’t have to muck about with my iPhone to get it to work... Imagine being able to quickly and easily add your own custom programs to your iPhone without asking anyone's permission though? Also, what if - as the owner of that device - you had full control over it's capabilities like you do with a desktop computer? Adding these abilities certainly would not be the downfall of phone ecosystems as we…

I would love to fully access the data on my phone. But of course it would also introduce security holes currently unimagined. Maybe someone can devise a secure sandbox model to enable this, but after Java's failure to resolve this problem, I'm not holding my breath.

Why is giving you a person, access to all of your data a problem?

The root cause is the complete lack of facilities to quickly and simply delegate capabilities to applications. There is no way to tell the OS, give this file to this application. Instead of trusting nothing, and providing the PowerBox facility to allow the user to do this, all the popular OSs just trust the applications with everything that the user has permissions to access, by default.

---

If you want to pay for a purchase at a store with cash, you carry a number of units of currency... and you only give the clerk the appropriate amount, and you can count the change to verify the transaction is correct.

Giving you a person, access to your cash is a solved problem. 8)

There is no equivalent way to work with an application on mainstream OSs. This is collective insanity, which I've been calling out for more than a decade.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#217

Post by IQunder130 »

novok wrote: post #192
IQunder130 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are looking at this through the eyes of someone who is already comfortable with their understanding of computers and software. To a kid with no prior knowledge, the entry barriers might appear impossibly high.

No, they're lower than ever. They're one google search away from a huge amount of usable resources, youtube videos, web IDEs that they can use on their locked down iPad / School Chromebook and more.

And to do anything non-trivial requires years of tediously building up a knowledge of all the abstraction layers and dependencies between you and the machine. For a long time there is nothing you can do that a million others haven't already done far better and made readily accessible.

I can personally attest to what a massive turn off this is. I grew up in an age when computers were a part of everyday life, but their inner workings - hidden behind a mountain of ugly obfuscation. If you find the rare trivial task like making stamped websites fascinating, good for you. But for people like me who couldn't care less, it takes some sort of external impetus to actually discover their interest in computing. In my case it was a half assed mandatory programming class in engineering school where I found out I had a talent for it, and discovered an interest in the inner workings of things I had been taking for granted all my life.

Just because resources are easy to find doesn't mean anybody cares for finding them.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#218

Post by croon »

mrzimmerman wrote: post #155
EvanAnderson wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why force them to spend even 10 seconds of effort on something that isn't their business... The law should make it "their business". I don't believe it should be possible to waive your right to legally do what you want with your property. (I have similar feelings about restrictive covenants in the conveyance of real property, for example.) Since we're editing here: It seems pretty pointless to mandate that all compan…

Don't you suppose you're being a bit dogmatic about it? Every device has to be as flexible as possible or it's against the law? Genuinely not trying to straw man, but should my oven manufacturer have to account for me wanting to turn it into a space heater if I feel like it? Companies make and sell products for specific use-cases all the time. Saying the can't sell something unless they also make the product able to…

> Don't you suppose you're being a bit dogmatic about it? Every device has to be as flexible as possible or it's against the law? Genuinely not trying to straw man, but should my oven manufacturer have to account for me wanting to turn it into a space heater if I feel like it?

You're reversing the burden. Apple is spending a lot of money to NOT make it possible to tinker with it.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#219

Post by GLGirty »

mannykannot wrote: post #99

The article is factually correct, but I feel that the analysis is missing some of the historical context. Here's a quite probably strained analogy to cosmology: Microprocessors and CMOS upended the computer industry, to the extent that a few years later, all the big companies in computing, up to that point, were in precipitous decline (even IBM, which embraced the new world order with the PC, only delayed this reckon…

A had a similar reaction to the article, and I appreciate your cosmic analogy.

The metaphor that came to my mind was the long persistence of steam power after electric motors were invented. Initially, 'going electric' meant replacing your one giant steam boiler with one giant electric motor, and doing everything else the same way. The factory remained organized around the drive shafts and pulleys and mechanical distribution systems. There was little advantage. It took decades of experimentation to gain the insights of how many small motors and task lighting could allow a factory to be optimized for task flow, not power distribution. And then it took longer for those insights to diffuse through slow human networks.

Hardware has developed so fast that software had no time or incentive to mature. Each decade's tech just gets ossified into the stack because hardware was making the stack faster at a better rate than human insight.

Every few decades, we get lucky and an invention happens when the ecosystem can use it... so we get compilers and sql and automated tests. But then other insights like immutable data structs just stay niche.

I hope that as hardware progress flattens, opportunities emerge for better software paradigms. Maybe this will coincide with the craft of software becoming introspective about it's myriad social issues.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#220

Post by wtetzner »

CountSessine wrote: post #209
wtetzner wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s kind of the problem, isn’t it? But those aren't the same thing. Me being able to install what I want on my phone doesn't give me the ability to install it on other people's phones. I currently have the ability to install apps on my phone from the app store, but I can't make that decision for someone else's phone. So why would it be different for software that doesn't come from the app store?

The point is that these are security boundaries. Look at all the malware that was being spread by people posting bad Fortnite apks. I posted a Fortnite apk to a forum and I included some of my own custom code. I made a decision to install that on other people’s phones. (I didn’t really do this) Obviously this is a bit self-serving on Apple’s part - restricting software installs begins to feel like a protection racket…

Sure, but users still have to make the decision to install that apk.

Yes, there's a security risk, but what's really being said here is "we're going to decide what you're allowed to do so you won't hurt yourself".

And I guess I just don't think that should be their decision to make.

Or to put it another way: Apple can keep the app store, and even make it the default, but there should be a setting to allow installing things from outside the app store. It can even be behind a few scary popups warning the user of the danger.

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