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The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

cacm.acm.org

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Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#201

Post by brucehoult »

idle_zealot wrote: post #128
a_c_s wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody's permission is required to write apps for your own iOS device.

Maybe not to write them, but to run them you need Apple to sign them. A free developer account can be used to have Apple sign your app, but then Apple will only give you permission to run that app for 7 days, and only give you permission to install 3 apps signed that way at a given time. In any case, side loading iOS applications absolutely requires Apple's permission. Unless you were talking about jailbreaking.

So get a paid developer account.

Freedom to modify is not the same as zero cost. You paid for the iPhone hardware, after all. Just pretend it cost $99 more and came with the right to load your own apps.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#202

Post by mattkevan »

novok wrote: post #187
CryptoGhost wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are talking about a barrier to entry (in the sense that it used to be easier) for a person who is new to general purpose computing to get on boarded while the person you are replying to is talking about the opportunity increase in the number of systems you can with work with presently.

I think it's actually easier today, because of the large amount of free well made educational resources out there, stack overflow, raspberry pi, instant IDEs from just typing in a URL, scriptable and popular online games like roblox and more. While in the past you had books you had to buy and if you were lucky, some help on IRC and basic on your computer, that you were encouraged to use to get some basic games on you…

It’s definitely easier today.

As a kid I got into programming in basic on my Acorn Archimedes because I had a book on basic. However I never got further than that because I didn’t have access to any more advanced programming books.

Now, all the information about it everything is available within a few minutes of searching.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#203

Post by sjy »

mrzimmerman wrote: post #155
EvanAnderson wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why force them to spend even 10 seconds of effort on something that isn't their business... The law should make it "their business". I don't believe it should be possible to waive your right to legally do what you want with your property. (I have similar feelings about restrictive covenants in the conveyance of real property, for example.) Since we're editing here: It seems pretty pointless to mandate that all compan…

Don't you suppose you're being a bit dogmatic about it? Every device has to be as flexible as possible or it's against the law? Genuinely not trying to straw man, but should my oven manufacturer have to account for me wanting to turn it into a space heater if I feel like it? Companies make and sell products for specific use-cases all the time. Saying the can't sell something unless they also make the product able to…

> should my oven manufacturer have to account for me wanting to turn it into a space heater if I feel like it?

No, because their failure to do this has no structural consequences for the market in ovens or space heaters. Apple’s control over the market for software that can run on 2 billion iOS devices, on the other hand, is a big deal. Some think it’s Apple’s just deserts for creating a platform that users like; others think the government should end that control using the antitrust laws passed to limit corporate power at this scale.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#204

Post by mindslight »

EvanAnderson wrote: post #147
mikestew wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But of course it would also introduce security holes currently unimagined I would argue that at least some of those holes were indeed imagined, that’s why iOS works the way it does and not the way parent would like.

iOS works the way it does to make money for Apple. First it was to appease carriers to enable the devices to exist. Then it was to appease publishers to get content on the devices. Now it's to make that sweet, sweet app store commission. That there are benefits for device owners who are willing to give up their freedom is a happy accident.

Note that every stage you have described has been called "security". Security is inherently a multi-perspective endeavour, and the word gets abused by powerful entities looking to preserve their own security, likely at the expense of your own (eg the TSA). I do agree that end users receive benefits from Apple's security, but to insist that explains the whole story is hopelessly ignorant.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#205

Post by sjy »

halostatue wrote: post #200
wayneftw wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you're saying that there is absolutely now way, no how that we can put up a fence to keep people with low understanding of tech from compiling and installing some random app? I don't buy it. > I don’t think that that Windows 95-like “permissions” are what most people want or need. That's an extremely bad faith take on my argument because there's a very wide spectrum of possibilities between the Windows 95 free-fo…

Google puts up tons of scary warnings for sideloading…and IIRC, that’s part of Epic’s case against Google (the warnings discourage people from installing alternative stores or from alternative means), in addition to Google’s position on Play. (I do not believe that Epic has a meaningful case on any front, but that’s ultimately for the courts to decide. The courts often decide wrongly, as was recently done for Oracle…

You mention that the JavaScript console has been used maliciously – doesn’t its continued existence show that we can put up a fence that’s good enough? Even the most locked down corporate PCs still provide access to the console. I’ve also never heard of anyone being tricked into rooting an Android device or enabling USB debugging.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#206

Post by halostatue »

sjy wrote: post #205
halostatue wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google puts up tons of scary warnings for sideloading…and IIRC, that’s part of Epic’s case against Google (the warnings discourage people from installing alternative stores or from alternative means), in addition to Google’s position on Play. (I do not believe that Epic has a meaningful case on any front, but that’s ultimately for the courts to decide. The courts often decide wrongly, as was recently done for Oracle…

You mention that the JavaScript console has been used maliciously – doesn’t its continued existence show that we can put up a fence that’s good enough? Even the most locked down corporate PCs still provide access to the console. I’ve also never heard of anyone being tricked into rooting an Android device or enabling USB debugging.

It shows just the opposite. These instructions were being provided to people who should never be opening the JavaScript console because they couldn’t understand what they were pasting into said console. And for some browsers, that means potentially opening up things like USB because of inane standards like WebUSB.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#207

Post by sjy »

brucehoult wrote: post #201
idle_zealot wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not to write them, but to run them you need Apple to sign them. A free developer account can be used to have Apple sign your app, but then Apple will only give you permission to run that app for 7 days, and only give you permission to install 3 apps signed that way at a given time. In any case, side loading iOS applications absolutely requires Apple's permission. Unless you were talking about jailbreaking.

So get a paid developer account. Freedom to modify is not the same as zero cost. You paid for the iPhone hardware, after all. Just pretend it cost $99 more and came with the right to load your own apps.

Freedom to modify is also not the same as a renewable 7-day licence to run up to 3 custom apps, as long as you maintain a $99/year subscription and a device that can run Xcode.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#208

Post by InvertedRhodium »

ravi-delia wrote: post #197
Silhouette wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe me, in general I'm with you. But at the end of the day you just don't have to buy an iphone. Get an android device, flash it with Linux, buy a pinephone, do whatever you want! The problem with this argument is the same as any essential utility. At some point, it becomes impossible to live a normal life without access to a certain facility. If access is only available through a monopoly provider or a small eno…

It may well be that internet access in general is an essential utility, though I'd disagree that any device in particular is. However, the fact that the 'two dominant platforms' continue existing is mostly due to people's personal preferences. Besides, saying that Android devices even approach the same level of locked-downness of Apple devices is absurd; I run an open source version of android on all my mobile device…

Does your banking application, Google Pay, and other services that (needlessly) rely on SafetyNet work on that phone?

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#209

Post by CountSessine »

wtetzner wrote: post #171
CountSessine wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine being able to quickly and easily add your own custom programs to your iPhone without asking anyone's permission though? Or even better, imagine being able to quickly and easily add your own custom programs to someone else’s iPhone, without asking anyone’s permission though? That’s kind of the problem, isn’t it?

> That’s kind of the problem, isn’t it? But those aren't the same thing. Me being able to install what I want on my phone doesn't give me the ability to install it on other people's phones. I currently have the ability to install apps on my phone from the app store, but I can't make that decision for someone else's phone. So why would it be different for software that doesn't come from the app store?

The point is that these are security boundaries. Look at all the malware that was being spread by people posting bad Fortnite apks. I posted a Fortnite apk to a forum and I included some of my own custom code. I made a decision to install that on other people’s phones. (I didn’t really do this)

Obviously this is a bit self-serving on Apple’s part - restricting software installs begins to feel like a protection racket. But it still serves as a security perimeter.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#210

Post by mikewarot »

mattkevan wrote: post #106

Thing is, in the ‘olden days’, the only thing you could do with a home computer was tinker - the job of a computer was to be a computer but little else. And the number of people interested in doing that was small. Today, the job of a computer is everything. Computers are in everything and do everything. They are our interface to the world. Their value is what they enable - writing, tax returns, video consumption, gam…

>For those of us who want a computer to tinker with, we’ve never had it so good.

I disagree to an extent. While the hardware is much, MUCH faster, efficient, reliable.. it isn't something we can tinker with anymore.

Would you feel safe picking up a random USB drive and running the programs on it? A huge chunk of the fun of early PCs is gone. You can't just find new stuff and try it out to see how well it works.

If its open source, you get dependency hell, if it works at all. Plus there could be any number of backdoors or bugs in it waiting to subvert your system. Plus the ever present threat of having all of your passwords and/or data exfiltrated to who-knows-where.

In the days of 2 floppy disk machines, none of this was a worry.

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