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Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

martin.kleppmann.com

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Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#31

Post by Spivak »

adkadskhj wrote: post #8
dvt wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't tell if you're intentionally or accidentally misleading. All I'm doing is looking at the market cap of companies like Facebook and Dropbox. I mean, hell, Facebook literally sold personal data and sure, you occasionally see "boycott FB" movements, but they're all bark and no bite.

This is sort of like saying people are okay with cancer because they buy certain plastics in mass. The reality is people are ignorant of what is good for them in a ton of applications, including this one. Only a handful really grasp the context of what is happening with their data and most importantly how their data could affect them. People routinely do things against their own interest. It's up to the other people…

I don't think you're giving people enough credit. It's not exactly a mystery at this point that Facebook/IG make their money by selling access to your information to advertisers. People really just don't care which doesn't make them ignorant and doesn't mean they're wrong to not care. We're the privacy obsessed weirdos. I've been in conversations where people talk about products they "discovered" through IG ads.

The mindset where we're the only ones that really understand what's going on and everyone else are just sheeple -- sheeple I tell you is gross. This issue really isn't all that nuanced. That's just the lie we tell ourselves because we don't want to admit that we're the nutters being like "they're watching you scroll through Facebook and they're gonna use that to lower your credit score. THE ALGORITHMS!!"

I'm proud to be part of this weird club but let's not use it as an oppertunity to shit on our outgroup.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#32

Post by hinkley »

mvzvm wrote: post #23
pdimitar wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to underestimate the pressure from the market. At one point the younger generation does not even remember there was a local-first software. Sadly the relentless efforts of the corporations are paying off. That doesn't mean people are okay with it. It means their choice is made for them.

I disagree. I think HN is rabid about privacy and "owning your data", but by and large, most people just don't care.

There’s a whole thing with growing or making your own food as much as you can. We keep outsourcing food production. In affluent areas that’s a boon, in others it’s an active problem.

Probably we will see the same play out here.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#33

Post by qbasic_forever »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #17
endisneigh wrote: post #13

I wish OneDrive, Dropbox, etc. had a notion of a Personal Database File System, PDFS. With PDFS if they all shared the same API then you could build a database ontop of the PDFS that syncs to popular file systems. If both of those things existed you would be able to build apps like LinkedIn such that LinkedIn could just access your PDFS so your profile is actually hosted directly on your PDFS - so if you delete your…

Isn't the API the filesystem? What happens if you set up OneDrive and Dropbox (and Google and Apple) to sync the same folder.

> What happens if you set up OneDrive and Dropbox (and Google and Apple) to sync the same folder.

Chaos, potentially. Think about deletes... delete a file from the web UI of one service, its client deletes the file locally, but that same instant the _other_ service sees the missing file and happily restores it, the first client deletes, the second client restores, etc. etc. until you've blown gigabytes and gigabytes of network bandwidth.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#34

Post by zozbot234 »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #18
RedShift1 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People use the cloud because they are being forced through the software user interfaces. Working with local files takes increasingly more steps compared to cloud based solutions. So I wouldn't exactly say that people are ok with it, it feels more like they choice is being made for them.

If web pages could be more easily given access to a directory on your filesystem, Google Docs could more easily show you you files in your Documents folder.

'Access to shared data' for proprietary, untrusted "apps" is an anti-pattern that even iOS and Android are now getting away from. If a JavaScript app needs to access some sort of complex directory structure, that can happen within current API's by locally "uploading" and "downloading" a standard archive format, e.g. a .ZIP file.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#35

Post by iamwil »

pdimitar wrote: post #11

I am completely behind the idea and would work full time on it (if I had my time for myself) but all such documents or sites are all talk and no code and it's getting tiring. I get that they want to inspire, to show data backing up the idea that people are open to that software model, and in general to give hope and inform but... I am getting way too cynical and I can't help but wonder if actually writing a tool that…

James already has. https://actualbudget.com/

It's personal budgeting software that's local-first.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#36

Post by Jtsummers »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #33
jay_kyburz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the API the filesystem? What happens if you set up OneDrive and Dropbox (and Google and Apple) to sync the same folder.

> What happens if you set up OneDrive and Dropbox (and Google and Apple) to sync the same folder. Chaos, potentially. Think about deletes... delete a file from the web UI of one service, its client deletes the file locally, but that same instant the _other_ service sees the missing file and happily restores it, the first client deletes, the second client restores, etc. etc. until you've blown gigabytes and gigabytes…

In other words, ultimate control needs to be on the client side. You delete from Dropbox, and the local machine marks the file as no longer being backed up by Dropbox but does not delete it. Some UI needs to present to the user: This file is backed up in these services, but not the other one. At that point, the user has the choice of fully removing the file, restoring it to Dropbox, or leaving it alone. They may even decide they don't want it backed up in any service, but want it to remain on the filesystem.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#38

Post by ibeckermayer »

mvzvm wrote: post #23
pdimitar wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to underestimate the pressure from the market. At one point the younger generation does not even remember there was a local-first software. Sadly the relentless efforts of the corporations are paying off. That doesn't mean people are okay with it. It means their choice is made for them.

I disagree. I think HN is rabid about privacy and "owning your data", but by and large, most people just don't care.

Consider who taught them not to care.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#39

Post by southerntofu »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #18
RedShift1 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People use the cloud because they are being forced through the software user interfaces. Working with local files takes increasingly more steps compared to cloud based solutions. So I wouldn't exactly say that people are ok with it, it feels more like they choice is being made for them.

If web pages could be more easily given access to a directory on your filesystem, Google Docs could more easily show you you files in your Documents folder.

Running code from untrusted sources (Javascript/WASM in the browser) is an anti-pattern. It causes all sorts of problems and vulnerabilities.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#40

Post by deathanatos »

codemac wrote: post #27
mvzvm wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think HN is rabid about privacy and "owning your data", but by and large, most people just don't care.

Most that I talk to do - but it's similar to how they care about the national debt. There's nothing they can do, they have no realistic expertise or control, and they vote with what - dollars once every phone purchase?

> and they vote with what - dollars

More and more, I am seeing many companies that realize they can do both: take the user's money and feed them ads. After all, that's more profitable than just taking their money.

As examples, T-mo, Verizon, my local gas station, various airlines all both take my money and give me ads. Some are even known to sell my data.

So, can I actually vote with my wallet?

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