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Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

martin.kleppmann.com

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Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#11

Post by pdimitar »

I am completely behind the idea and would work full time on it (if I had my time for myself) but all such documents or sites are all talk and no code and it's getting tiring.

I get that they want to inspire, to show data backing up the idea that people are open to that software model, and in general to give hope and inform but... I am getting way too cynical and I can't help but wonder if actually writing a tool that builds the foundations of such a movement wouldn't have been a time better spent?

I mean, at what point will somebody do something about it? And does it have to be your average overworked programmer who is sacrificing their scarce free time? When will one of these organizations that periodically toot their own horn about much they care, will hire several hardcore programmers to do something?

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#12

Post by pdimitar »

dvt wrote: post #3

These kinds of ideas always get traction here on HN or similar places (slashdot), but I think that ship has long sailed. People, by and large, seem to be totally okay with storing data in the cloud -- from Dropbox, to Google Docs, to InVision. All things considered, data breaches are rare, and if they do happen, they're usually to be blamed on configuration blunders, not the services at large. Other than a few highly…

You seem to underestimate the pressure from the market.

At one point the younger generation does not even remember there was a local-first software.

Sadly the relentless efforts of the corporations are paying off.

That doesn't mean people are okay with it. It means their choice is made for them.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#13

Post by endisneigh »

I wish OneDrive, Dropbox, etc. had a notion of a Personal Database File System, PDFS. With PDFS if they all shared the same API then you could build a database ontop of the PDFS that syncs to popular file systems.

If both of those things existed you would be able to build apps like LinkedIn such that LinkedIn could just access your PDFS so your profile is actually hosted directly on your PDFS - so if you delete your profile info on your PDFS it's gone from LinkedIn. Of course, this also depends on trusting LinkedIn to not just copy over the contents of your PDFS but that could be handled as well.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#14

Post by Jtsummers »

pdimitar wrote: post #11

I am completely behind the idea and would work full time on it (if I had my time for myself) but all such documents or sites are all talk and no code and it's getting tiring. I get that they want to inspire, to show data backing up the idea that people are open to that software model, and in general to give hope and inform but... I am getting way too cynical and I can't help but wonder if actually writing a tool that…

> I am getting way too cynical and I can't help but wonder if actually writing a tool that builds the foundations of such a movement wouldn't have been a time better spent by the authors?

One of the authors wrote a book on this topic that gets high praise and frequent recommendations on this site. Several (all?) of the coauthors worked on prototypes on this topic that they discussed freely in order to enable others to follow their same path and explore it further. So yes, I'd say you're getting way too cynical.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#15

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

endisneigh wrote: post #13

I wish OneDrive, Dropbox, etc. had a notion of a Personal Database File System, PDFS. With PDFS if they all shared the same API then you could build a database ontop of the PDFS that syncs to popular file systems. If both of those things existed you would be able to build apps like LinkedIn such that LinkedIn could just access your PDFS so your profile is actually hosted directly on your PDFS - so if you delete your…

You have to remember that all of these companies are either part of a large company or a startup. Locking you in is the reason they can justify their stock, their IPO, their exit and their high developer salaries.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#16

Post by pdimitar »

Jtsummers wrote: post #14
pdimitar wrote: post #11

I am completely behind the idea and would work full time on it (if I had my time for myself) but all such documents or sites are all talk and no code and it's getting tiring. I get that they want to inspire, to show data backing up the idea that people are open to that software model, and in general to give hope and inform but... I am getting way too cynical and I can't help but wonder if actually writing a tool that…

> I am getting way too cynical and I can't help but wonder if actually writing a tool that builds the foundations of such a movement wouldn't have been a time better spent by the authors? One of the authors wrote a book on this topic that gets high praise and frequent recommendations on this site. Several (all?) of the coauthors worked on prototypes on this topic that they discussed freely in order to enable others t…

I'll immediately agree I am getting too cynical. I just wish we had something more than inspirational articles about the issue.

Didn't know about the prototypes. Good on the authors! I do wonder why not one has been seen to completion though, do you know?

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#17

Post by jay_kyburz »

endisneigh wrote: post #13

I wish OneDrive, Dropbox, etc. had a notion of a Personal Database File System, PDFS. With PDFS if they all shared the same API then you could build a database ontop of the PDFS that syncs to popular file systems. If both of those things existed you would be able to build apps like LinkedIn such that LinkedIn could just access your PDFS so your profile is actually hosted directly on your PDFS - so if you delete your…

Isn't the API the filesystem?

What happens if you set up OneDrive and Dropbox (and Google and Apple) to sync the same folder.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#18

Post by jay_kyburz »

RedShift1 wrote: post #10
dvt wrote: post #3

These kinds of ideas always get traction here on HN or similar places (slashdot), but I think that ship has long sailed. People, by and large, seem to be totally okay with storing data in the cloud -- from Dropbox, to Google Docs, to InVision. All things considered, data breaches are rare, and if they do happen, they're usually to be blamed on configuration blunders, not the services at large. Other than a few highly…

People use the cloud because they are being forced through the software user interfaces. Working with local files takes increasingly more steps compared to cloud based solutions. So I wouldn't exactly say that people are ok with it, it feels more like they choice is being made for them.

If web pages could be more easily given access to a directory on your filesystem, Google Docs could more easily show you you files in your Documents folder.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#19

Post by snthd »

endisneigh wrote: post #13

I wish OneDrive, Dropbox, etc. had a notion of a Personal Database File System, PDFS. With PDFS if they all shared the same API then you could build a database ontop of the PDFS that syncs to popular file systems. If both of those things existed you would be able to build apps like LinkedIn such that LinkedIn could just access your PDFS so your profile is actually hosted directly on your PDFS - so if you delete your…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_(web_decentralization_pr...

>Solid (Social Linked Data) is a web decentralization project led by Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the World Wide Web, developed collaboratively at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). The project "aims to radically change the way Web applications work today, resulting in true data ownership as well as improved privacy" by developing a platform for linked-data applications that are completely decentralized and fully under users' control rather than controlled by other entities. The ultimate goal of Solid is to allow users to have full control of their own data, including access control and storage location. To that end, Tim Berners-Lee formed a company called Inrupt to help build a commercial ecosystem to fuel Solid.

https://solidproject.org/users/get-a-pod

https://solidproject.org/developers/tutorials/getting-starte...

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#20

Post by hemloc_io »

dvt wrote: post #3

These kinds of ideas always get traction here on HN or similar places (slashdot), but I think that ship has long sailed. People, by and large, seem to be totally okay with storing data in the cloud -- from Dropbox, to Google Docs, to InVision. All things considered, data breaches are rare, and if they do happen, they're usually to be blamed on configuration blunders, not the services at large. Other than a few highly…

I think you're mostly right.

However I would've said the same thing about Telegram/Signal/Defi and other decentralized/privacy first technology not too long ago.

I think there's a reasonable case for the idea that as the conversation around censorship and data ownership evolves, we'll see a restructuring of the market toward some level of personal data ownership. We're probably far from that today though.

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