Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#331

Post by simsla » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:18 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #213

simsla wrote: post #183

I hope enough people vote yes. The way FC workers are treated is not ok. It's the main blemish on a company I otherwise respect. "Other companies treat FC staff like shit too" is not an excuse. Disclaimer: Work for Amazon (corp / tech side). Opinion my own, obviously.

> "Other companies treat FC staff like shit too" is not an excuse. How is this not an excuse? Most people would switch to Walmart/Target/Bestbuy or any other retailer if the price on Amazon is higher.

It's not just about wages. I think Amazon has actually made great strides by raising their minimum wages to $15/h. According to US stats the monetary benefit from unionising is about +11% on average. By offering twice the federal minimum, it's possible that Amazon is already above that. Now, you can argue that minimum wage should be higher still, but that's a separate discussion.

I don't think we should pretend that FC jobs will ever be super high paying or enviable jobs, but there are other ways to improve worker conditions. e.g. In some FC's, people allegedly have to walk for 20 minutes to reach a toilet. That's easily fixed. Making sure people don't have to choose between feeding their families and casting a vote in the election is another example. In general, even for a low skill job, pressure shouldn't be so high as to burn people out.

I think some FCs might actually have decent worker conditions. Others don't. As you alluded to, a company has financial interests that may not align with worker interests, which is why I think this needs to be approached in a structural way. Like Bezos himself once said: "Good intentions don't work; you need good mechanisms to make anything happen."

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#332

Post by ModernMech » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #123

Someone1234 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The depressing part is that this is actually an improvement over the violence and intimidation tactics of America's past. The US has never been a particularly union supportive country. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_th...

There's still time to return to the good old days when the boss called in a private air force to drop poison gas and bombs on striking workers.

Yes, this is a good reminder that the first areal attack on US soil was not Pearl Harbor, but was against striking workers in 1921 at the Battle of Blair Mountain.

"By August 29 battle was fully joined. Chafin's men, though outnumbered, had the advantage of higher positions and better weaponry. Private planes were hired to drop homemade bombs on the miners. A combination of poison gas and explosive bombs left over from World War I were dropped in several locations near the towns of Jeffery, Sharples and Blair." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

Someone else in the thread mentioned a revived push for "company towns", which is exactly what these workers were fighting against. Being fired from their company meant losing their job and their house, since it was owned by the company. Honestly, it's not much different from being fired in 2021 and losing your job and your health insurance.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#333

Post by flyt » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

dheera wrote: post #302

sokoloff wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what would be in it for union leadership under such a structure? (Not to mention that unions also have some unavoidable expenses, even if you didn't have a bunch of highly-paid union leader mouths to feed.) Amazon would still find a way to argue. "If you're not a lowest performer, don't let a union negotiate for you and force your wages down to the lowest performing among you." or many other phrases that would ap…

> But what would be in it for union leadership under such a structure? An ego boost? I mean this seriously -- people love being moderators of Subreddits and admins of online communities largely deep down for the ego boost. A union really needs not much more than a Discord server and maybe a Zoom membership to organize strikes and whatever else they need to do.

Unions need more than a Discord to organize. They may need to compensate union leadership for time taken to organize away from their work duties, pay for events, pay for mailers and other communications infrastructure, and of course pay for professionals like labor lawyers.

No union will have much luck performing collective bargaining against Amazon without working alongside experienced lawyers.

These costs don't have to be huge, but they aren't zero.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#334

Post by rodgerd » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

notriddle wrote: post #327

smnrchrds wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to that, fines can and do bankrupt small businesses. I cannot remember the last time a big company went bankrupt by fines. Breaking the law poses existential threat to small businesses, not large enterprises.

Fines should be proportional to income. They're supposed to be a deterrent, not a revenue source.

This is why surveillance capitalists tried to rally the Valley against the GDPR: fines based on global income could be effective, which is unacceptable to companies used to treating breaking the law as a minor cost of doing business.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#335

Post by tor11 » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

lovegoblin wrote: post #162

tyingq wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do get the joke, but to balance it a bit, the writer is a freelancer, and does appear to have pretty good chops around labor issues. https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimmkelly

Yeah, Teen Vogue has plenty of solid journalism.

funny.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#336

Post by db48x » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:25 PM UTC

abstractbarista wrote: post #324

What happens to the people who didn't want to pay in, if the union does get set up? Will they be forced to have money taken from them to continue working there? I'd probably quit if some organization suddenly started siphoning my paycheck. Sure unionize if you want, and I'll strike with you over issues, but that doesn't require my payment to accomplish. I am very thankful to live in a right to work state where nobody…

Yea, in most states you can't be forced to join a union, and dues are for the maintenance of the union. Only members pay for it.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#337

Post by rendang » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:26 PM UTC

jeanjogr wrote: post #204

I have never been able to quite grasp what it means to "unionize" in the US. Here in my country, unions work like political parties (which I understand is not exactly enticing right now): - you are free to join or not - there are elected workers' representatives whether there are unions are not - unions serve to organize workers for action and representatives elections, support candidates, and provide additional serv…

Not knowing what country you are in, I would bet that the situation of unions there ultimately is a result of the global labor movement of the 19th and 20th centuries, which came to be via strikes and grassroots union organizing activities.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#338

Post by s1artibartfast » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

sodality2 wrote: post #325

fastball wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what they meant. Why is one scummy and the other not?

Amazon is strong-arming workers into voting no with propaganda posters, unions typically hurt amazon (else why would they fight so hard against it), and typically help the workers. Do you not see the problem here? I don't mean to say unions are always right. I see anti-union sentiment from the very company that would be hurt by it to be very much allowed. But since I believe in worker's rights and can see firsthand h…

Just to be clear, this is a double standard based on your priors.

Vote No propaganda is bad because unions are good.

Vote Yes propaganda is good because unions are good.

If you are not convinced that unions age good in the first place, then it all falls apart.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#339

Post by tor11 » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

ketzo wrote: post #328

abstractbarista wrote: post #324

What happens to the people who didn't want to pay in, if the union does get set up? Will they be forced to have money taken from them to continue working there? I'd probably quit if some organization suddenly started siphoning my paycheck. Sure unionize if you want, and I'll strike with you over issues, but that doesn't require my payment to accomplish. I am very thankful to live in a right to work state where nobody…

Unions don't ask for dues just to grift you. At a minimum, any half-competent union should be able to tell you how they're going to get you more than your dues in value from the union. This could be actual increased pay, benefits, or other value from collective organization. No one is trying to steal anything from you. Unions are for workers . If you think Amazon is in your corner more than a union would be, I would…

> Unions are for workers

funny.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#340

Post by thiagocsf » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

sodality2 wrote: post #2

Detailed, 6 step instructions on how to open a ballot and mark no? Thanks, amazon. This is almost as scummy as asking the city to change traffic lights so union organizers have a harder time talking to workers in between shifts. https://www.al.com/business/2021/02/jefferson-county-now-say...

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