Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#201

Post by SilasX » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #43

duxup wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got instructions from more than one party this past fall on how to fill out a ballot and mail it early and etc.

It wasn't your boss telling you how to do that though. The direct power imbalance is pretty different, I think.

Then I don’t understand the outrage. What’s offensive about instructions on how to fill out a ballot above and beyond the fact of them asking you to vote no?

The GGP seemed to think that there was something particularly bad about the detailed six page instructions. But the GP correctly pointed out they do the same thing in regular government elections (to milk as many voters as they can).

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#202

Post by sudosysgen » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #150

sudosysgen wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are at least nominally directly elected by their constituents and beholden to them, which is why they are protected when engaging in politics. If you think they do not represent them, then maybe the solution is to develop better union structures that are more democratic and representative. But by and large, teachers do not support the Libertarian party and instead favour the Democratic party, quite heavily in…

Agree with your points. However, using that line of thinking people voluntarily join a company too. Often to work for a company with union rep one HAS to join, whether one agrees or not, so it’s not entirely voluntary in a strict sense. All this said, I do believe Amazon is treating their warehouse workers unfairly and they deserve pushback though I admit I do not favor bringing in a Union due to my past member exper…

There is a huge difference. People have no choice but to work, and once you are employed, you cannot have any democratic control over the company.

In contrast, for the union, even if you were forced to join, you'd still have democratic control over the union itself.

So there is a big difference. It's the difference between choosing in which dictatorship to live and living in a (sometimes direct!) democracy.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#203

Post by Animats » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

Better coverage than Vice, in The Guardian.[1]

Interestingly, there is now a global union, based in Switzerland, that's organizing multinationals. They're up to 20 million members.[2] They've been able to organize two US gig-worker companies, Manpower and Kelly Services.

They have a brochure on Amazon: "Essentially irresponsible".[3]

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/feb/23/amazon-be...

[2] https://uniglobalunion.org/about-us/global-agreements

[3] https://uniglobalunion.org/sites/default/files/attachments/p...

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#204

Post by jeanjogr » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

I have never been able to quite grasp what it means to "unionize" in the US.

Here in my country, unions work like political parties (which I understand is not exactly enticing right now):

- you are free to join or not

- there are elected workers' representatives whether there are unions are not

- unions serve to organize workers for action and representatives elections, support candidates, and provide additional services as well

In this context, there is no one big vote to unionize or not, and no "union jobs". How does it work in the US?

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#205

Post by AdrianB1 » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

Some colleagues asked me when I will start a company 'cause they want to join me. My dream of that company is that if a union is even needed, I have failed and that company needs to close.

I understand why some people want unions. I also know about a very long history of unions either completely destroying companies or having a negative influence over them, including the countries in Europe like my own. Long term unions become a parasitic entity that has the main purpose to continue its existence for the profit of the union leaders and nobody else and using all the influence to achieve that goal, even if the host is negatively impacted.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#206

Post by soperj » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

ruined wrote: post #192

soperj wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you have multiple jobs, then you clearly have time to find another job.

no, working an additional job does not give you more hours in a day. rather it consumes time. what do you do at work?

I'm responding to what's written. If you have a job at walmart, they can't both have zero time to find another job because of being beholden to their job at walmart and have another job.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#207

Post by grumple » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #52

lucasmullens wrote: post #30

How does this not backfire? At Google I'm just sitting on the sidelines with the whole union thing, but if they sent me something like this I'd join and support the union immediately.

This is a pretty interesting question, and I think prods at other questions about the actual form that tech worker unions will take - especially in big companies like Google. Will they be actual organized units capable of orchestrating coordinated action to withhold labor for improvement of material conditions? Or will they just be a sort of caucus that issue statements about political issues at work and occasionally…

We might not notice the tech workers walking out at google. It's not like they provide support.

At AWS - we'd definitely notice, because their support is really good.

> Will they be actual organized units capable of orchestrating coordinated action to withhold labor for improvement of material conditions?

Developers have the money to withstand very long strikes if needed. I think there's a lot of power in that.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#208

Post by arachnids » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

balabaster wrote: post #194

tyingq wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You appear to perhaps be from the UK (saw "honour"). Employees in the UK have quite a lot more protection by default than they do in the US. I do respect your go-it-alone-and-fight-my-own-battles position, but consider that you might feel differently if you were in a US "right to work" state.

I don't know what it means to live in a "right to work" state. I assume that means that everyone has a right to reasonably paid employment? I don't understand how this situation could come to be. What if there were no employers? That situation can only occur if there are enough jobs to maintain gainful employment of every citizen of the state. In such a situation I would likely only remain around as long as there was…

"Right to work" is American euphemism for your employer being able to fire you at will for no cause

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#209

Post by dheera » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

fireball_blaze wrote: post #107

sodality2 wrote: post #2

Detailed, 6 step instructions on how to open a ballot and mark no? Thanks, amazon. This is almost as scummy as asking the city to change traffic lights so union organizers have a harder time talking to workers in between shifts. https://www.al.com/business/2021/02/jefferson-county-now-say...

Also reference Amazon's "Do it without dues" site: https://www.doitwithoutdues.com/

Maybe someone should start a second union without dues? That would leave Amazon with no way to argue.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#210

Post by wittyreference » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

soperj wrote: post #112

balabaster wrote: post #95

Full disclosure: I've always been anti-union for my own personal approach to life. I do see the value in unions, I've just always, to this point, been a go-it-alone-and-fight-my-own-battles kind of person. I don't want to be beholden to a union or their rules any more than I want to be beholden to an employer beyond my contractual obligations for which I'm paid. That said, people should take note of what happened whe…

So they were both reduced hours and beholden to their jobs with no time off?

39 hours + "you come running when we call or you lose it."

It's just shy of full-time (to withhold benefits), but not exactly the same thing as a side gig. And you're bent over a barrel.