The unusual ways Western parents raise children • Hacker News Board

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#301

Post by ragnese » Wed, Feb 24, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

bhandziuk wrote: post #248

ragnese wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the U.S. I personally know a non-trivial number of women who have gone through absolutely intense (real, diagnosed) anxiety and depression because of having to feed formula to their child instead of breast milk. If you ever get to peek into these "mommy groups" on social media or in person, you can see how much shaming goes on in there. And the breast milk one is one of the biggest issues people get shamed for…

When my wife and I went to pre-baby classes they'd often use the phrase "Fed is best" and I thought it was strange because it sounded like something that could have rhymed and was a missed opportunity. Then I was informed that the phrase used to be "Breast is best" but, like you're saying, women who could not breast feed for whatever reason were subjected to this level of guilt and ridicule so much so that now they'v…

That is very positive and reassuring to hear. When my then-wife and I had our son, it was still very strong "breast is best" messaging. It really has made a lot of parents feel awful amounts of guilt and shame.

Personally, until we have very strong evidence that breast milk is significantly better for the baby, I think the messaging shouldn't even be "breast feed if you can"- it should be "breast feed if you want". Some women have a terrible experience breast feeding even though the technically "can" produce the milk. It can be physically quite uncomfortable, it keeps dad from being able to bond as well, the baby might not be good at "latching", etc.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#302

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg » Wed, Feb 24, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

NLips wrote: post #268

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only difference is that your position is in contravention of the evidence, whereas mine is backed by it. Breastfeeding pain is something the XXX vast majority XXX (ed: another commenter pointed out that only about 30% of women experience ongoing pain during breastfeeding -- so good for those who don't, but this is still a significant problem for many many women) of breastfeeding women experience. Some women are a…

From the study: “ Although 90% of women report acute breast and nipple pain during the first week of breastfeeding initiation” “ 30% of women who continue to breastfeed at 2 weeks after birth report persistent breast and nipple pain” That’s certainly quite different from the suggestion that it’s a year of suffering in the normal case. Breast feed if you want to, and quit when you want, without worrying about what oth…

Thats fair. I did not mean to misrepresent the numbers but plainly I did. A significant fraction of women have continuing pain, but not the majority.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#303

Post by watwut » Wed, Feb 24, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

meowster wrote: post #82

alistairSH wrote: post #29

Of all the "weird" things we do as parents in euro/anglo nations, sleeping arrangements seems nowhere near the top. IMO, the top "offender" is over-scheduling kid's activities. So many kids in my area have their days booked solid with sports, academic tutoring, music lessons. Approaching zero free time to enjoy being a kid. Edit - and this isn't really a western thing, "Tiger Mom" and similar probably pre-dates this…

I volunteer with a U.S. Scout troop. I see boys that don't know whether or not they can go on an activity/campout because they have to ask their parents if they're free that day/weekend. I try to tell them their old enough (most are teenagers) that they should start deciding for themselves what activities they participate in. Most all of them just seem apathetic. I'm sure their parents are trying to do what is best f…

There is nothing new in that? When I was pre teen and teen, I definitely had to get parents permission for weekend campout. It seems to me normal that parent have a say in whether the non-adult child sleep at home. Plus there were weekend activities woth familly I was expected to participate in - trips, familly visits, grandpa birthsday, etc.

So I would ask. I mean, idea that 16-17 years old goes for campout without asking parents strikes me as wtf.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#304

Post by SamuelAdams » Wed, Feb 24, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

carabiner wrote: post #285

alistairSH wrote: post #29

Of all the "weird" things we do as parents in euro/anglo nations, sleeping arrangements seems nowhere near the top. IMO, the top "offender" is over-scheduling kid's activities. So many kids in my area have their days booked solid with sports, academic tutoring, music lessons. Approaching zero free time to enjoy being a kid. Edit - and this isn't really a western thing, "Tiger Mom" and similar probably pre-dates this…

My coworker did this with her son. She was spread thin with afterschool programs, sports, projects and so on. Well, the kid got into Caltech. Where he'll probably meet amazing people and receive an excellent education. So maybe it worked? How many YC founders had this overbooked childhood? I'd guess over 70%.

And there's plenty of students at Caltech who were not overbooked in their free time.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#305

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg » Wed, Feb 24, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

ragnese wrote: post #293

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are not a scientist who has actually conducted one of these studies; if you are not intimately familiar with the methodologies and the math techniques used in the analysis; if you've only ever read the headline and maybe an abstract of a study- then please don't give advice to anyone on the topic. Please don't spread "information" that X is better than Y. I'd say this advice doesn't really go far enough. I'm…

I agree with everything you said. Especially with acknowledging that breastfeeding, in particular, has costs associated with it. Something that isn't discussed much is that formula/bottle feeding gives the opportunity for dad to bond with the baby over feeding as well as allowing to divide the sleep deprivation more equitably between both parents.

This was 100% my favorite thing about weaning. It gave me more time with the boys and a chance to demonstrate my commitment to the effort to their mother. And she started getting a lot more sleep, which improved general happiness in the house, and everything that goes along with that.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#306

Post by gonehome » Wed, Feb 24, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #256

gonehome wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets beaten out of you and the easiest response is to just give up and wait it out. “You don’t want to do this anymore? You need this for college, you shouldn’t quit everything you do, I wish I could have done this” etc. Eventually it’s just easier to passively suffer whatever activity you dislike and just recognize the starting cost to trying new things is extreme. > “ I try to tell them their old enough (most ar…

it can be sort of futile. as a kid, you can argue, resist, or break the rules, but until you can support yourself financially, your parents get the final say on most important matters. reminds me of my first meeting with my advisor at college to pick courses for freshman year. I came in with a few ideas for courses/majors that my dad thought were practical. my advisor picked up on this almost immediately and asked "o…

Yeah, I think some people are clueless to this context.

Even in more direct ways.

I remember getting yelled at in middle school because I would show up late to early morning jazz band practices I had to be driven to. I was ready to go 40min before we had to be there. I can't make my mom get me there on time.

I think adults forget kids are not independent.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#307

Post by cashewchoo » Wed, Feb 24, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

dom96 wrote: post #297

mucholove wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What method of sleep training did you use? This article lists 6! https://www.todaysparent.com/baby/baby-sleep/most-popular-sl...

I've been wondering the same, the BBC article explains: > the most extreme version of which involves leaving a baby on their own to "cry it out", in an effort to encourage their babies to sleep for longer stretches so their parents can get some much-needed rest. I'm not a parent but that sounds pretty sensible to me. Odd of the BBC to call it "extreme".

We sleep-trained our first starting at about 6 months old, and we're about to do the same with our second. The strategy we used was some kind of incremental back-off. Put them down, light out, leave. Wait 5 mins. Go on, give them a little hug or back pat, leave. Wait 10. Then 15. Then 20. Then 30. Then stay at 30 until they fall asleep.

Next night, 10, 15, 20, 30, 30, 30...

next night, 15, 20, 30, 30, 30....

At some point it went up to like 30 mins for first check, then an hour for subsequent checks. I think if we'd gotten to that point we'd consider trying something else cause that's a lot of crying.

But in practice we never had to really adhere to most of the structure because iirc it was like:

Night 1: 5, 10, 15, asleep. Night 2: 10, 15, asleep. Night 3: asleep. Night 4: 15, asleep.

Then he was sleep trained and has slept like a rock with 0-30 seconds of fussing (usually 0) (and ~never crying) since.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#308

Post by llimos » Wed, Feb 24, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

Speaking as a parent of 5. Parental mental health has a much bigger effect on the child than choice of methodologies. You really need to look after yourself before you can look after them - so if you are suffering from sleep deprivation, doing what you have to do is the right thing to do.

Put your own oxygen mask on first.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#309

Post by NovaJehovah » Wed, Feb 24, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

gdubs wrote: post #171

One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it. We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.…

I'll probably get downvoted, but I strongly disagree with this mindset. Raising kids is not a fun hobby or a side project that will fit into a neat little drawer in your life. You have an obligation to do the best that you can. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, it's stressful. Like it or not, that's what you signed up for. So step up.

Like anything else in life, you can do a good job or a bad job at being a parent. If you're prioritizing your own convenience or ego or career over the wellbeing of your child, then you're a bad parent. Don't rationalize it with clichés like "love is all that matters" or search for online echo chambers of fellow shitty parents who will soothe your cognitive dissonance while your kid suffers. Make whatever sacrifices you need to, put the time in, and do better.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#310

Post by notsureaboutpg » Wed, Feb 24, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

dlisboa wrote: post #87

Outside of neglect and abuse, is there really a WRONG way of raising a child? You see multiple different styles in different cultures. Some cultures where bed-sharing and baby-carrying is common also beat their kids and use other forms of punishment for disobedience. Wouldn't that be much "weirder"? It seems in Europe breastfeeding rates are really low and people use prams, but they might not beat the child as much (…

> Outside of neglect and abuse, is there really a WRONG way of raising a child?

Well, do we know if there is or not?

Also, "neglect" and "abuse", not everyone will draw the same line. Parenting is one of the only activities in our lives where we have to completely disregard the expressed desires of the one we care about in order to make life better for them. If a kid doesn't want to go to school, they still have to go. If a kid does something wrong, they have to be taught somehow (even if they don't want to). Is it abusive to make people do stuff against their will? Westerners think it is in every circumstance except parenting. Others will disagree.

Is corporal punishment abusive? You seem to think so, but many will disagree. You'd probably argue pretty well that it is! And you'd feel you're really helping families all over by proving your point.

And that's where the shame around parenting comes from.