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The unusual ways Western parents raise children

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Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#171

Post by gdubs »

One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it.

We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.) This article calls it an ‘extreme’ practice. For us, ‘extreme’ was the sleep deprivation we experienced with baby number one as we tried every ‘no cry’ method in the book. The baby cried and cried and cried. Once we started sleep training, there was a bit of crying and then - a sleeping baby! Through the night! Total amount of crying went from hours to zero. The kid became happier — they weren’t sleep-deprived anymore. And neither were we. I no longer felt like I was going to drop the ball due to extreme exhaustion.

Babies two and three had the benefit of our experience, and they barely cried at all. The third one would lay down eyes-open and fall asleep. “So it actually does happen! — I thought the books must be lying.”

By all objective measures our kids are happy, healthy, and well-adjusted. But that doesn’t mean we still don’t get the stink eye from people who think it’s a cruel practice.

Just raise your kids with love. Be compassionate, and patient. Find a doctor you trust. Don’t let people add to an already stressful endeavor.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#172

Post by derivagral »

ajmadesc wrote: post #162
standardUser wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So many kids in my area have their days booked solid" Sounds like a wealthy thing, not a Western thing.

Queue the Doctor / Lawyer married couple with 2.5 kids who vacation twice a year, lease German cars, and have positive net worth crying about 'only being middle class'.

Technically, aren't they right? Middle class typically means you still have to work, strictly speaking.

I'm going off of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Three-level_econo...

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#173

Post by germinalphrase »

tw04 wrote: post #127
germinalphrase wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you assume the child never sleeps? Even co-sleeping, our son would go to sleep before us (either staying in the bed on the floor or being transferred to a crib). There can be other places in the home to be intimate.

>Do you assume the child never sleeps? Even co-sleeping, our son would go to sleep before us (either staying in the bed on the floor or being transferred to a crib). There can be other places in the home to be intimate. I assume that banging in the kitchen is a fun adventure sometimes, but I'd prefer to do it in my bed most of the time. And accusing me of being "oddly focused on the individual" is both wildly inaccur…

I make no such accusation. I merely point out that a child in the bedroom is less of an impediment than might be thought.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#174

Post by pj1115 »

Clewza313 wrote: post #147
pj1115 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'd find some evidence for historical poverty being one factor of several in cultural practices of bed sharing. Japan would be a notable exception (plenty of co-sleeping, unremarkable poverty rate). I also don't think it has become much less common in communities where poverty levels have fallen. Anecdotally, my SO is part of a community originally displaced from India and now settled all over the world, wh…

Not sure what you mean by Japan being an exception? Bed-sharing remains very much the default there.

I was trying to say that this is common in Japan, where poverty is almost certainly not the major factor. A counter to the parent comment's assertion. Should have been clearer.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#175

Post by silicon2401 »

lqet wrote: post #161
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is damage and there is damage. Some can really change kids trajectory. Some become a funny anecdote for the future. I am a newly minted parent and we had a visitation from a parent, who now has a 4 year old. She already introduced him to Starbucks and McDonalds. Now I have to ensure that she stays way way down on the list of people we would consider babysitting. There may not be wrong way to parent exactly and…

> She already introduced him to Starbucks and McDonalds. Now I have to ensure that she stays way way down on the list of people we would consider babysitting. Relax. I occasionally ate fast food when I was 4, and I was definitely aware of the existence of McDonalds. I never had a weight problem in my life, and today I eat fast food maybe once every 3 months or so.

That's a condescending and unfounded response. Some people can take heroin and not have issues, but that doesn't make heroin safe by any means. You're in a small minority of Americans and not representative of the average person.

> The organization estimates that 3/4 of the American population will likely be overweight or obese by 2020.[13] According to research done by the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, it is estimated that around 40% of Americans are considered obese, and 18% are considered severely obese as of 2019. Severe obesity is defined as a BMI over 35 in the study. Their projections say that about half of the US population (48.9%) will be considered obese and nearly 1 in 4 (24.2%) will be considered severely obese by the year 2030.[14][15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#176

Post by rayiner »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #132
PebblesRox wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and I really dislike the undercurrent of fear that's present in a lot of parenting advice. The message (implicitly or explicitly) tends to be "do it this way or you'll damage your kids." But the truth is we're never going to be perfect parents, we have no guarantees over how our kids turn out, and there are a wide range of approaches that will lead to good outcomes. I like to do research to discover options I…

There is damage and there is damage. Some can really change kids trajectory. Some become a funny anecdote for the future. I am a newly minted parent and we had a visitation from a parent, who now has a 4 year old. She already introduced him to Starbucks and McDonalds. Now I have to ensure that she stays way way down on the list of people we would consider babysitting. There may not be wrong way to parent exactly and…

What's wrong with Starbucks and McDonalds? Kids drink glasses of milk. An iced latte is literally just a glass of milk with espresso in it. As to McDonalds--I'm not convinced it's any worse than the stuff I ate at that age in Bangladesh (curries heavy with oil, lots of carbs).

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#177

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

lqet wrote: post #161
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is damage and there is damage. Some can really change kids trajectory. Some become a funny anecdote for the future. I am a newly minted parent and we had a visitation from a parent, who now has a 4 year old. She already introduced him to Starbucks and McDonalds. Now I have to ensure that she stays way way down on the list of people we would consider babysitting. There may not be wrong way to parent exactly and…

> She already introduced him to Starbucks and McDonalds. Now I have to ensure that she stays way way down on the list of people we would consider babysitting. Relax. I occasionally ate fast food when I was 4, and I was definitely aware of the existence of McDonalds. I never had a weight problem in my life, and today I eat fast food maybe once every 3 months or so.

I accept I may be over-reacting a little, but in that particular case occasionally means a weekly happy meal. The kid in question is already yelling "Happy Meal day" on Friday.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#178

Post by meowster »

osterreich0000 wrote: post #114
meowster wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if salaries were more competitive because there were less workers? If the cultural norm was to only have one parent work, then it seems like the supply of workers essentially doubles* if both parents work, leading to less competitive wages. *not exactly, but essentially. Yes, not everyone is married etc.

This is what's known as the "lump of labour" fallacy - the idea that there's a fixed amount of work that needs to be done, therefore opening the job market to more workers necessarily lowers wages due to "increased supply". The reality is that increasing the supply of workers doesn't necessarily mean increased competition for jobs. More people available to work means that more can be produced across the board; each a…

> each additional worker can create opportunities for further additional workers

By more people working, we created more opportunities for more people to work?

I think there is a fallacy within that "lump of labour fallacy". I'm not saying there is a fixed amount of work needed, but eventually you do run into economies of scale: less and less addional work is needed to support more people.

Hasn't cost of living and other expenses have increased faster than wage growth? With more jobs just for the sake of creating jobs, does each additional job pay the same or more?

I'm of the opinion that we need more opportunities for people to work less, so they can have more time for raising kids or persuing hobbies.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#179

Post by alistairSH »

Clewza313 wrote: post #130
timerol wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of areas open to the public that are accessible to children: playgrounds, libraries, schoolyards, skateparks, large underused parking lots, malls, public pools. Some places have great nature nearby: beaches, creeks, rivers, hills, and mountains. Some of those are more dangerous than others, but they are all accessible if the parent allows it.

In the US, if the children in question are under 12 and going to any of those places unsupervised, they're likely to get the police and/or CPS called on them.

Sadly true. And part of the problem. There's now an expectation (at least in upper middle class areas) that kids be in formal, supervised activities 24/7.

I still remember growing up, playing around the neighborhood, and a parent would call out the front door "Danny, dinner time!" and all the kids would scatter to get home for dinner.

#getoffmylawn #wheresmycane

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#180

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

meowster wrote: post #91
jokethrowaway wrote: post #42

I wonder how much is caused by having both parents working. Kids were raised differently 50-70 years ago when one salary was enough for a family.

I wonder if salaries were more competitive because there were less workers? If the cultural norm was to only have one parent work, then it seems like the supply of workers essentially doubles* if both parents work, leading to less competitive wages. *not exactly, but essentially. Yes, not everyone is married etc.

I’d put it on the other side, though after correcting for inflation maybe it’s the same thing depending on the sector.

If you’re buying a house with two incomes, you can outbid a couple with one income by a factor of two-ish. You don’t need more houses to keep up with more workers per house, so you just see prices get bid up. Eventually a house costs 1.7 full time incomes because that’s what the couple you’re bidding against probably has.

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