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I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

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Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#61

Post by Cyph0n »

chrischen wrote: post #38
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some ways, you're right, but Americans feel most strongly about the freedom of speech when it comes to specifically political speech, and I think the biggest difference is that I, as an American, can choose to say "I think our President of the United States is a fascist and a criminal and he should be arrested for his crimes" and I am in no way worried that the government will track me down and punish me in any ma…

If you speak freely, and it is not powerful enough to cause any consequences, then are you freely speaking at all? Sounds like a great way to make us feel like we have political power and that our speech has power, when in reality the moment our speech can disrupt the establishment it gets clamped down. One big difference here vs China is that the establishment is a bit more distributed. The people in power here are…

As someone who has lived in dictatorships and now lives in the US, I don’t see the point to your (rhetorical?) question at all. I’ve seen firsthand how much more relaxed people become when they don’t need to constantly worry about government informants (I’m from Tunisia).

Of course, for the vast majority of people, living in a poor democracy is objectively worse than living in a rich dictatorship.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#62

Post by jsnk »

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #51
jsnk wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not as sure if China or US is worse about political speech anymore. In US, the government may not come for you like China. But in US, there are multi-national corporations, NGOs, think tanks, activist groups, social media mob who can just as effectively and "humanely" strip your power, influence and livelihood just as well as Chinese government can. Also at least with China, rules are pretty black and white. Don'…

Yes, the US is actually better about freedom of speech than China in practice. To give you a negative example, a significant number of people organized a literal coup attempt, largely in the open, via social media, and nothing happened to them until they actually stormed the US Capitol building, after which some of them were arrested. Large media companies with massive audiences broadcast divisive lies accusing the c…

It seems rather naive to believe that Jack Ma disappeared due to mild criticism of the Chinese government's financial regulation policies.

ANT group has financial network power that can challenge the Chinese government's control over the country. In the future, if the power is unchecked now, it definitely can challenge the Chinese government. I am not casting a judgement whether that's right or wrong that a company has power like that. I'm just denying that Jack Ma's insignificant comment is what got him in trouble. What got Jack Ma in trouble is truly existential threat ANT group may pose down the future when a single entity fully controls financial activities of the entire Chinese population.

Compare to that, a bunch of idiots storming the capital building, is just that. A bunch of idiots storming the physical building. It's no threat. American regime barely was tickled by such an incident. It's embarrassing, but nothing significant will come out of it other than amazing leverage for the left to use. So props to that.

In comparison, Jack Ma and the ANT group's current and future influence in China is actually significant, lasting and potent, that can even rival Chinese government.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#63

Post by bigpumpkin »

kypro wrote: post #4

It would be interesting if someone from China could comment on censorship in China. Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? Some of these arguments for censorship made in this article sound eerily similar to how we justify censorship in the West. > Our role was to make sure that low-level content moderators could find "harmful and dangerous content" as soon as poss…

Most people (60%) don't care because they find everything they need on the Chinese internet anyways.

25% of the people find it a nuisance, but don't speak out against it.

5% of the people actively use a VPN to circumvent it.

5% of the people oppose it out of principle.

5% of the people actively support it because they think it's a way to prevent "information warfare" from the West.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#64

Post by ericmay »

lambda_obrien wrote: post #53
throwaway_ruok wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese national here. > Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? There is a fraction of people who agrees with it. Otherwise it wouldn't be there. But most people dislike, or at least are annoyed by, the censorship. There are several different kind of dislike. There are people who are opposed to censorship in principle. There are people who find certain rules or me…

Sounds a lot like everywhere else, like America. I bet if Americans and Chinese looked, we have more in common with each other than we have with our politicians.

I definitely agree that THE PEOPLE have a lot in common. Almost everyone all over the world just wants to enjoy life.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#65

Post by dfadsadsf »

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #31
chrischen wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would characterize the biggest difference is that Chinese people are actually aware they are being massively censored, while Americans think they have no censorship.

In some ways, you're right, but Americans feel most strongly about the freedom of speech when it comes to specifically political speech, and I think the biggest difference is that I, as an American, can choose to say "I think our President of the United States is a fascist and a criminal and he should be arrested for his crimes" and I am in no way worried that the government will track me down and punish me in any ma…

A Russian meets up with an American. "We have freedom of speech," the Russian says. "I can post that Russian elections are falsified on social media."

"What's the big deal?" asks the American. "I too can write that Russian elections are falsified on social media."

Original: https://youtu.be/gNXpa0M-UdY

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#66

Post by frogcoder »

ehmmmmmmmm wrote: post #10
kypro wrote: post #4

It would be interesting if someone from China could comment on censorship in China. Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? Some of these arguments for censorship made in this article sound eerily similar to how we justify censorship in the West. > Our role was to make sure that low-level content moderators could find "harmful and dangerous content" as soon as poss…

> It would be interesting if someone from China could comment on censorship in China. Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? In general people don't agree with it. However, for a lot of people, it's not actually on their radar. The reality is most people in China are so engrossed in their work and day-to-day life that censorship isn't really actually an issue for…

> most citizens would rather have whatever it takes to have no riots

Isn't it a brilliant tactic deployed by the regime, making people think that freedom of speech equals riot on the street. Like the USA is burning in hell with all the black live matters protest and the capitol protest/riot?

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#67

Post by concordDance »

kypro wrote: post #4

It would be interesting if someone from China could comment on censorship in China. Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? Some of these arguments for censorship made in this article sound eerily similar to how we justify censorship in the West. > Our role was to make sure that low-level content moderators could find "harmful and dangerous content" as soon as poss…

> Of course in the West its companies not politicians who call the shots, but the language to justify the actions is certainly similar.

Almost identical. "Terrorist" viewpoints/content and "hate speech" are banned and censored in most Western countries.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#68

Post by leesalminen »

anigbrowl wrote: post #49
kypro wrote: post #4

It would be interesting if someone from China could comment on censorship in China. Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? Some of these arguments for censorship made in this article sound eerily similar to how we justify censorship in the West. > Our role was to make sure that low-level content moderators could find "harmful and dangerous content" as soon as poss…

Someone signed up to make this pro-CCP comment, which was then flagged within minutes - rather ironic given the context in which it was posted. Although I disagreed with several of the premises and the logic of the comment, I vouched for it as an interesting and valid contribution. However, the lack of transparency around flags and vouching on HN makes this meaningless, and I have never seen a flagged comment vouched…

I always recommend to my HN friends to enable the showdead setting on their profile. There is definitely some garbage, but it’s not that bad. This isn’t the first post I’ve seen that definitely adds valuable context and was inexplicably censored away.

Edit: you jinxed it! The post is no longer dead it would seem.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#69

Post by [deleted] »

int_19h wrote: post #57
throwaway8581 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 50s and 60s. It was in full swing by the 70s. If I had to point to one iconic development, it would be the Warren court, and in particular its free speech cases. Those marked the decisive defeat of traditional conservatism, which never again was a powerful force in national politics (unless you count some elements of the Trump coalition) despite occasional lip service and token concessions by Reagan and Bush 43.…

I feel like this overemphasizes the legal angle, while ignoring other aspects of censorship. It's true that the Warren court significantly liberalized things by setting very narrow constitutional boundaries in Brandenburg v. Ohio etc. But there's censorship by law, and then there's censorship by public opinion. When you complain about "wokeism", it's mostly the latter - but there was plenty of that in the 70s as well…

[deleted]

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#70

Post by chrischen »

Cyph0n wrote: post #61
chrischen wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you speak freely, and it is not powerful enough to cause any consequences, then are you freely speaking at all? Sounds like a great way to make us feel like we have political power and that our speech has power, when in reality the moment our speech can disrupt the establishment it gets clamped down. One big difference here vs China is that the establishment is a bit more distributed. The people in power here are…

As someone who has lived in dictatorships and now lives in the US, I don’t see the point to your (rhetorical?) question at all. I’ve seen firsthand how much more relaxed people become when they don’t need to constantly worry about government informants (I’m from Tunisia). Of course, for the vast majority of people, living in a poor democracy is objectively worse than living in a rich dictatorship.

I can't speak for Tunisia but people in China generally don't have such worries. I'm really trying to compare two relatively stable governments, with one employing centralized censorship and power preservation and one employing decentralized censorship and power preservation.

If you throw say a less well off and also oppressive government then it's a different matter.

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