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I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

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Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would characterize the biggest difference is that Chinese people are actually aware they are being massively censored, while Americans think they have no censorship.

In some ways, you're right, but Americans feel most strongly about the freedom of speech when it comes to specifically political speech, and I think the biggest difference is that I, as an American, can choose to say "I think our President of the United States is a fascist and a criminal and he should be arrested for his crimes" and I am in no way worried that the government will track me down and punish me in any ma…

I'm not as sure if China or US is worse about political speech anymore.

In US, the government may not come for you like China.

But in US, there are multi-national corporations, NGOs, think tanks, activist groups, social media mob who can just as effectively and "humanely" strip your power, influence and livelihood just as well as Chinese government can.

Also at least with China, rules are pretty black and white. Don't mess with the Chinese government's received view. However in US, it's ever-changing goal post, where opinions, jokes, scientific studies which were mainstream just a couple of years ago can potentially get you fired, bank account closed, socially shunned and be labeled with all kinds of things.

Is US actually better about freedom of speech than China in practice culturally?

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#42
post #4

It would be interesting if someone from China could comment on censorship in China. Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? Some of these arguments for censorship made in this article sound eerily similar to how we justify censorship in the West. > Our role was to make sure that low-level content moderators could find "harmful and dangerous content" as soon as poss…

I would characterize the biggest difference is that Chinese people are actually aware they are being massively censored, while Americans think they have no censorship.

If you are trying to say they are the same in magnitude then the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" comes to mind.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#43
post #4

It would be interesting if someone from China could comment on censorship in China. Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? Some of these arguments for censorship made in this article sound eerily similar to how we justify censorship in the West. > Our role was to make sure that low-level content moderators could find "harmful and dangerous content" as soon as poss…

> It would be interesting if someone from China could comment on censorship in China. Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? In general people don't agree with it. However, for a lot of people, it's not actually on their radar. The reality is most people in China are so engrossed in their work and day-to-day life that censorship isn't really actually an issue for…

>Most people in Shenzhen were extremely happy they were in Shenzhen where you could walk around freely instead of "free" Hong Kong

Good to know. This means that if the American govt decides to just topple the chinese leadership and take over, submissive Chinese citizens such as yourselves will carry on as usual instead of making trouble.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some ways, you're right, but Americans feel most strongly about the freedom of speech when it comes to specifically political speech, and I think the biggest difference is that I, as an American, can choose to say "I think our President of the United States is a fascist and a criminal and he should be arrested for his crimes" and I am in no way worried that the government will track me down and punish me in any ma…

If you speak freely, and it is not powerful enough to cause any consequences, then are you freely speaking at all? Sounds like a great way to make us feel like we have political power and that our speech has power, when in reality the moment our speech can disrupt the establishment it gets clamped down. One big difference here vs China is that the establishment is a bit more distributed. The people in power here are…

yes, that’s speaking freely without convincing anyone of anything.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#45
Sure, and I helped build Palantir's license-plate-reading, immigrant-processing, and drone-targeting machines. Everyone in the Bay Area is fine with that. No one cares. To an average affluent Bay Area engineer, illegal immigrants and people getting blown up half a world away are extremely abstract concerns. The real sources of pain in a Bay Area engineer's life are their inability to sip lattes through a mask and Planet Granite in Sunnyvale being closed. Meanwhile, my inbox is blowing up with inquiries from companies and I have my pick of lucrative jobs.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#46

Sure, and I helped build Palantir's license-plate-reading, immigrant-processing, and drone-targeting machines. Everyone in the Bay Area is fine with that. No one cares. To an average affluent Bay Area engineer, illegal immigrants and people getting blown up half a world away are extremely abstract concerns. The real sources of pain in a Bay Area engineer's life are their inability to sip lattes through a mask and Pla…

Can you expand on that? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#47

“When I was at ByteDance, we received multiple requests from the bases to develop an algorithm that could automatically detect when a Douyin user spoke Uyghur, and then cut off the livestream session... ...every audio clip would be automatically transcribed into text, allowing algorithms to compare the notes with a long and constantly-updated list of sensitive words, dates and names, as well as Natural Language Proce…

Everybody talks about AI overlords, but the real threat is regular-old overlords using AI as a tool

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#48
post #4

It would be interesting if someone from China could comment on censorship in China. Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? Some of these arguments for censorship made in this article sound eerily similar to how we justify censorship in the West. > Our role was to make sure that low-level content moderators could find "harmful and dangerous content" as soon as poss…

> It would be interesting if someone from China could comment on censorship in China. Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? In general people don't agree with it. However, for a lot of people, it's not actually on their radar. The reality is most people in China are so engrossed in their work and day-to-day life that censorship isn't really actually an issue for…

Sure, it's the peace of submission, the peace of silence, the worst kind of peace that hardly reflects any level of "happiness". It's quite disingenuous to compare Shenzhen to Hong Kong's molotovs. What's left unspoken, of course, is the fear of thinking, saying, and doing anything that disagrees with or simply embarrasses the state (like the Chinese doctor who alerted his community about this new virus that was spreading out of control); They won't throw molotovs at you, they will erase you and possibly your entire ethnic group. That's a level of extreme happiness that formerly free Hong Kong wasn't able to achieve.

It's important that the West never fall this low. This is the final form of low-trust politics that thrives when democratic government repeatedly fails in its duties. Eventually, the population completely loses trust in the ability of free society to collectively achieve results (let alone operate with integrity) so it starts picking & tolerating corrupt authoritarians as long as they produce results. China will likely continue to tolerate the CCP's total lack of integrity as long as the trains run on time. This is also why economic sanctions can be effective against authoritarian regimes.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#49
post #4

It would be interesting if someone from China could comment on censorship in China. Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? Some of these arguments for censorship made in this article sound eerily similar to how we justify censorship in the West. > Our role was to make sure that low-level content moderators could find "harmful and dangerous content" as soon as poss…

Someone signed up to make this pro-CCP comment, which was then flagged within minutes - rather ironic given the context in which it was posted. Although I disagreed with several of the premises and the logic of the comment, I vouched for it as an interesting and valid contribution.

However, the lack of transparency around flags and vouching on HN makes this meaningless, and I have never seen a flagged comment vouched back to visibility. Accordingly, I have reposted it below, although I would like to emphasize again that this is not an endorsement of its claims..

---- nglengjai 10 minutes ago [dead] | parent | unvouch | favorite | on: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

I can comment as I grew up in China my entire life and came to the west just a few years ago, attending international school. People obviously know censorship exists and most believe is for the greater good, as China needs social stability above all. Most people just want to live their lives, have children receive a good education, make money, have safety, etc. There is no need to bad mouth the government after everything they do for the people. So many families are now wealthy, business is booming, people can afford nicer houses, and the economy is doing better than ever. Crime and danger pretty much does not exist, cities are walkable, life is safe. My family and friends families were low-middle class when I was a kid and are now in the upper class by western standards. Also, you have to understand that Chinese culture, especially Han culture, is very united and shares a lot of patriotism. Family values are very strong, cultural morals I think are very homogenous. This makes it very easy for everyone to agree with government decisions. Contrary to the west, we have very high faith the the government is always doing the most efficient and safe decisions for the general public, and people are happy about it because this has been shown to be true with how it has concretely affected hundreds of millions of people's lives. So many people taken out of poverty within a short span of time.

Social media censorship is not a big deal because we don't miss what we don't know. For example, people don't care they can't use google, facebook, instagram, because we have our own social networks. Also, people know not to talk about political subjects in these platforms because it is in bad taste and we know how to self-censor. Also, we Chinese see the chaos and mess from the news coming from the west regarding polarization, fighting between political parties, and social unrest and we don't want that. Contrary to the middle east, I would say most Chinese do not believe they are oppressed at all. They are happy with how the government handles things.

I'd say people are happy with the censorship because they believe it brings stronger national security, social stability, and reinforces shared cultural values most Chinese have with each other. Please keep in mind that we have different social values in the east than the west. Our perception of freedom and values that matter to society are quite different. Although this may seem extreme to you, your views sometimes seem extreme to us. Thank you for your time.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#50

Sure, and I helped build Palantir's license-plate-reading, immigrant-processing, and drone-targeting machines. Everyone in the Bay Area is fine with that. No one cares. To an average affluent Bay Area engineer, illegal immigrants and people getting blown up half a world away are extremely abstract concerns. The real sources of pain in a Bay Area engineer's life are their inability to sip lattes through a mask and Pla…

Can you expand on that? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

My guess is: "having no conscience makes you rich".
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